Encore: What Is Appalachia? We Asked People From Around The Region. Here’s What They Said.

Politically, Appalachia encompasses 423 counties across 13 states — and West Virginia’s the only state entirely inside the region. That leaves so much room for geographic and cultural variation, as well as many different views on what Appalachia really is. For Inside Appalachia, we turned our entire episode over to the question, “What is Appalachia?”

This week, we’re revisiting our episode “What Is Appalachia?” from December 2021.

Appalachia connects mountainous parts of the South, the Midwest, the Rust Belt and even the Northeast. The Appalachian Regional Commission (ARC) defined the boundaries for Appalachia in 1965 with the creation of the Appalachian Regional Commission, a part of Lyndon B. Johnson’s War on Poverty. It was legislation that sought to expand social welfare, and some localities were eager for the money, while others resisted the designation. The boundaries and definition of Appalachia can now only be changed by an act of Congress.

Politically, Appalachia encompasses 423 counties across 13 states — and West Virginia’s the only state entirely inside the region.

That leaves so much room for geographic and cultural variation, as well as many different views on what Appalachia really is. 

For Inside Appalachia, we turned our entire episode over to the question, “What is Appalachia?” With stories from Mississippi to Pittsburgh, we asked people across our region whether they consider themselves to be Appalachian.

A 1996 map that shows the southern part of Appalachia, as defined by John Alexander Williams.

Mississippi

Bob Owens — locally known as ‘Pop Owens,’ stands in front of his watermelon stand outside New Houlka, Mississippi. Pop says he was aware that Mississippi is part of Appalachia, but that no one in the state would consider themselves Appalachian.

Credit: Caitlin Tan/West Virginia Public Broadcasting

Bob Owens is a watermelon farmer outside New Houlka, in the northeastern part of Mississippi. Owens said he was aware that Mississippi is part of Appalachia, but that no one in the state would consider themselves Appalachian. “I consider myself the worst redneck you’ve ever seen,” Owens said. “I live in the area of the Appalachian mountain range — not part of it, but close to it. So I guess you call me a redneck Appalachian.” This is the general consensus among the people in Mississippi who Inside Appalachia spoke to.

Geographically, the foothills of the Appalachian mountain range are located in northern Mississippi. The state’s tallest point is Woodall Mountain, 806 feet in elevation. For reference, the highest point in North Carolina, Mount Mitchell, is more than 6,600 feet in elevation, eight times higher than Woodall Mountain.

Co-host Caitlin Tan spoke with Texas State University history professor Justin Randolph, who wrote an essay for “Southern Cultures” called “The Making of Appalachian Mississippi.” Randolph argues in his essay that Mississippi became part of Appalachia for political and racial reasons, as well as economic advantages the designation brought to the 24 counties in Mississippi that were included in the ARC’s boundaries.

Shenandoah Valley 

In the 1960s, while some localities were clamoring to get into Appalachia, on the eastern edge of the region, some lawmakers fought to keep their counties outside the boundaries, including politicians in Roanoke, Virginia and the Shenandoah Valley.

Appalachian Studies associate professor Emily Satterwhite said explaining to her students why some counties in Virginia are included in Appalachia, but others aren’t, is confusing. “The students in front of me are wondering why they’re not included,” White said.

Pittsburgh 

The Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania skyline.

Courtesy

Appalachia’s largest city is Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. When we asked people from that city to tell us if they consider it a part of Appalachia, about half said no. “I definitely do not feel that I am Appalachian culturally,” said Mark Jovanovich, who grew up just outside Pittsburgh’s city limits in the Woodland Hills area. “Personally, I would consider the city of Pittsburgh is sort of like a mini New York City. I guess we’d probably be lumped in as like a Rust Belt city, which makes enough sense, but definitely not Appalachian culturally.”

Writer Brian O’Neill disagrees. He wrote a book called The Paris of Appalachia: Pittsburgh in the Twenty-First Century. “My original title for the book was, ‘I love Pittsburgh like a brother and my brother drives me nuts.’”

An editor advised him to change the title of his book to a phrase that he said is sometimes used to refer to Pittsburgh derisively. “I couldn’t figure out why that should be a putdown, because Paris is nice. And Appalachia is a beautiful part of the world. And if we were called the Paris of the Rockies, we wouldn’t run from that. So why would we run from this? Why don’t we embrace it? So that became the title of my book.”

He said that geographically, Pittsburgh is clearly in the Appalachian Mountains. “I mean, this is one mountain range that stretches from Georgia to Maine. And the idea that it belongs only to the southern part of the mountain range defies logic to me,” O’Neill said.

What Do You Think?

How about you? Do you call yourself an Appalachian? Why or why not? Send an email to InsideAppalachia@wvpublic.org.

——

Our theme music is by Matt Jackfert. Other music this week was provided by John Wyatt, John R Miller, Alan Cathead Johnston,  and Dinosaur Burps. Roxy Todd originally produced this episode. Bill Lynch is our current producer. Our executive producer is Eric Douglas. Zander Aloi is our associate producer. Kelley Libby is our editor. Our audio mixer is Patrick Stephens.

You can find us on Instagram, Threads and Twitter @InAppalachia. Or here on Facebook.

Sign-up for the Inside Appalachia Newsletter!

Inside Appalachia is a production of West Virginia Public Broadcasting.


Table Tennis And A Movement To Ban Vinyl Chloride On This West Virginia Morning

On this West Virginia Morning, the Charleston Coliseum and Convention Center is hosting young athletes through Saturday who are competing in the International Table Tennis Tournament. Delaney Wells has more.

On this West Virginia Morning, the Charleston Coliseum and Convention Center is hosting young athletes through Saturday who are competing in the International Table Tennis Tournament. Delaney Wells has more.

Also, in this show, The Allegheny Front, based in Pittsburgh, is a public radio program that reports on environmental issues in the region. We listen to their latest story about a movement to ban vinyl chloride after the train crash and explosion in East Palestine, Ohio.

West Virginia Morning is a production of West Virginia Public Broadcasting which is solely responsible for its content.

Support for our news bureaus comes from Concord University and Shepherd University.

Caroline MacGregor is our assistant news director and produced this episode.

Teresa Wills is our host.

Listen to West Virginia Morning weekdays at 7:43 a.m. on WVPB Radio or subscribe to the podcast and never miss an episode. #WVMorning

Testimony On East Palestine Train Crash And PEIA Sees New Director, This West Virginia Morning

On this West Virginia Morning, we have a new story from The Allegheny Front – a public radio program based in Pittsburgh that reports on environmental issues in the region. This latest story explores the East Palestine train crash and recent testimony questioning the need to burn the train cars.

On this West Virginia Morning, we have a new story from The Allegheny Front – a public radio program based in Pittsburgh that reports on environmental issues in the region. This latest story explores the East Palestine train crash and recent testimony questioning the need to burn the train cars.

Also, in this show, in an administrative briefing Wednesday, Gov. Jim Justice announced the new director of the state’s Public Employee Insurance Agency (PEIA). Emily Rice has the story.

West Virginia Morning is a production of West Virginia Public Broadcasting which is solely responsible for its content.

Support for our news bureaus comes from Concord University and Shepherd University.

Caroline MacGregor is our assistant news director and produced this episode.

Teresa Wills is our host.

Listen to West Virginia Morning weekdays at 7:43 a.m. on WVPB Radio or subscribe to the podcast and never miss an episode. #WVMorning

What Is Appalachia? We Asked People From Around The Region. Here’s What They Said

Appalachia connects mountainous parts of the South, the Midwest, the Rust Belt, even the Northeast. The Appalachian Regional Commission defined the boundaries for Appalachia in 1965 with the creation of the Appalachian Regional Commission, a part of Lyndon B. Johnson’s War on Poverty. It was legislation that sought to expand social welfare, and some localities were eager for the money, while others resisted the designation. The boundaries and definition of Appalachia can only be changed by an act of Congress.

Politically, Appalachia encompasses 423 counties across 13 states — and West Virginia’s the only state entirely inside the region.

Southern Appalachia

That leaves so much room for geographic and cultural variation, as well as many different views on what Appalachia really is. For Inside Appalachia this week, we’re turning our entire episode over to the question, “What is Appalachia?” With stories from Mississippi to Pittsburgh, we ask people across our region whether they consider themselves to be Appalachian.

Mississippi

Bob Owens — locally known as ‘Pop Owens’, standing in front of his watermelon stand outside New Houlka, Miss. Pop said he was aware that Mississippi is part of Appalachia, but that no one in the state would consider themselves Appalachian.

Bob Owens is a watermelon farmer outside New Houlka, in the northeastern part of Mississippi. Owens said he was aware that Mississippi is part of Appalachia, but that no one in the state would consider themselves Appalachian. “I consider myself the worst redneck you’ve ever seen,” Owens said. “I live in the area of the Appalachian mountain range—not part of it, but close to it. So I guess you call me a redneck Appalachian.” This is the general consensus among the people in Mississippi we spoke to.

Geographically, the foothills of the Appalachian mountain range are located in northern Mississippi. The state’s tallest point is Woodall Mountain, 806 feet in elevation. For reference, the highest point in North Carolina, Mount Mitchell, is more than 6,600 feet in elevation, eight times higher than Woodall Mountain.

Co-host Caitlin Tan spoke with Texas State University History professor Justin Randolph, who wrote an essay for “Southern Cultures” called “The Making of Appalachian Mississippi.” Randolph argues in his essay that Mississippi became part of Appalachia for political and racial reasons, as well as economic advantages the designation brought the 24 counties in Mississippi that were included in the ARC’s boundaries.

Shenandoah Valley 

In the 1960s, while some localities were clamoring to get into Appalachia, on the eastern edge of the region some lawmakers fought to keep their counties outside the boundaries, including politicians in Roanoke, Virginia and the Shenandoah Valley. Appalachian Studies associate professor Emily Satterwhite said explaining to her students why some counties in Virginia are included in Appalachia, but others aren’t is confusing. “The students in front of me are wondering why they’re not included,” White said.

Pittsburgh 

The Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania skyline.

Appalachia’s largest city is Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. When we asked people from that city to tell us if they consider it a part of Appalachia, about half said no. “I definitely do not feel that I am Appalachian culturally,” said Mark Jovanovich, who grew up just outside Pittsburgh’s city limits in the Woodland Hills area. “Personally, I would consider the city of Pittsburgh is sort of like a mini New York City. I guess we’d probably be lumped in as like a Rust Belt city, which makes enough sense, but definitely not Appalachian culturally.”

Writer Brian O’Neill disagrees. He wrote a book called “The Paris of Appalachia: Pittsburgh in the Twenty-First Century.” “My original title for the book was ‘I love Pittsburgh like a brother and my brother drives me nuts.’”

An editor advised him to change the title of his book to a phrase that he said is sometimes used to refer to Pittsburgh derisively. “I couldn’t figure out why that should be a putdown, because Paris is nice. And Appalachia is a beautiful part of the world. And if we were called the Paris of the Rockies, we wouldn’t run from that. So why would we run from this? Why don’t we embrace it? So that became the title of my book.”

He said that geographically, Pittsburgh is clearly in the Appalachian Mountains. “I mean, this is one mountain range that stretches from Georgia to Maine. And the idea that it belongs only to the southern part of the mountain range defies logic to me,” O’Neill said.

What Do You Think?

How about you? Do you call yourself an Appalachian? Why or why not? Send an email to InsideAppalachia at wvpublic.org.

Reporters Jess Mador, Shepherd Snyder and Liz McCormick contributed to this episode.

Roxy Todd is our producer. Our executive producer is Andrea BillupsKelley Libby is our editor. Our audio mixer is Patrick Stephens. Zander Aloi and Eric Douglas also helped produce this episode. You can find us on Twitter @InAppalachia. You can also send us an email to InsideAppalachia@wvpublic.org.

Mountain Stage's Favorite Performances of 2016

2016 was a big year for NPR Music and West Virginia Public Broadcasting‘s Mountain Stage. We celebrated 33 years of live performance radio, commemorated the 25th anniversary of R.E.M.’s legendary set, and listened to the voices of two new guest hosts

And across seven venues in four states, we recorded over 120 live sets that showcased the best and brightest musicians in the world today. Along the way, we video streamed eight of our shows through VuHaus and made some new #gotowv friends along the way (with posters and glass records in tow!).  Of course, none of this would have happened without your support.

Before we embark on another musical year around the sun, Larry Groce and the Mountain Stage crew have picked out 33 performances that deserve another listen and another round of applause. From A to Z, these are our favorite Mountain Stage performances of 2016. (Hint: click the Episode # for their Mountain Stage podcast episode, where available.)

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Aoife O’Donovan – In the Magic Hour (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on October 30, 2016 – Episode #883)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Aoife O’Donovan on Mountain Stage

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Billy Bragg & Joe Henry – Gentle On My Mind (Byham Theater in Pittsburgh, PA on September 25, 2016 with WYEP & Pittsburgh Cultural Trust – Episode #879)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Mountain Stage
Billy Bragg & Joe Henry on Mountain Stage
2016-10-28_billy_bragg___joe_henry-gentle_on_my_mind.mp3
Billy Bragg & Joe Henry – "Gentle on My Mind" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Bottle Rockets – Dog (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on March 20, 2016 – Episode #866)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Bottle Rockets on Mountain Stage
2016-04-29_bottle_rockets-dog.mp3
Bottle Rockets – "Dog" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Brett Dennen – Cassidy (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on May 8, 2016 – Episode #870)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Brett Dennen on Mountain Stage
2016-06-03_brett_dennen-cassidy.mp3
Brett Dennen – "Cassidy" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Cheryl Wheeler – Estate Sale (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on July 24, 2016 – Episode #874)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Cheryl Wheeler on Mountain Stage
2016-12-06_cheryl_wheeler-estate_sale.mp3
Cheryl Wheeler – "Estate Sale" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Chris Smither – Leave the Light On (Byham Theater in Pittsburgh, PA on September 25, 2016 with WYEP & Pittsburgh Cultural Trust – Episode #879)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Chris Smither on Mountain Stage
mtnstage161028_chris_smither-leave_the_light_on.mp3
Chris Smither – "Leave the Light On" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Darrell Scott – Desperados Waiting for a Train (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on May 22, 2016 – Episode #871)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Darrell Scott on Mountain Stage
mtnstage160610_darrell_scott-desperados_waiting_for_a_train.mp3
Darrell Scott – "Desperados Waiting for a Train" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Foy Vance – Ziggy Looked Me In The Eye (Clay Center in Charleston, WV on October 16, 2016 – Episode #881)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Foy Vance on Mountain Stage
2016-11-11_foy_vance-children_of_the_revolution.mp3
Foy Vance – "Ziggy Looked Me In The Eye" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Hayes Carll – Sake of the Song (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on May 22, 2016 – Episode #871)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Hayes Carll on Mountain Stage
2016-06-10_hayes_carll-sake_of_the_song.mp3
Hayes Carll – "Sake of the Song" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Indigo Girls – Shame on You (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on September 18, 2016 – Episode #878)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Indigo Girls on Mountain Stage
2016-12-06_indigo_girls-shame_on_you.mp3
Indigo Girls – "Shame on You" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Iron & Wine – We Two are Moon (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on December 4, 2016 – Episode #885)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Iron & Wine on Mountain Stage
2016-12-06_iron___wine-we_too_are_moon.mp3
Iron & Wine – "We Too are Moon" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Jerry Douglas presents The Earls of Leicester – Down the Road (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on July 24, 2016 – Episode #874)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Jerry Douglas presents The Earls of Leicester on Mountain Stage
2016-12-06_earls_of_leicester-down_the_road.mp3
Jerry Douglas presents The Earls of Leicester – "Down the Road" – Live from Mountain Stage

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John Paul White – Once and Future Queen (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on November 20, 2016 – Episode #884)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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John Paul White on Mountain Stage
2016-12-09_john_paul_white-once_and_future_queen.mp3
John Paul White – "Once and Future Queen" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Judy Collins with Ari Hest – I Choose Love (West Virginia University in Morgantown, WV on April 17, 2016 – Episode #868)

Credit Brian Blauser/MountainStage
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Judy Collins with Ari Hest on Mountain Stage
2016-05-13_judy_collins-i_choose_love.mp3
Judy Collins with Ari Hest – "I Choose Love" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Lake Street Dive – Call Off Your Dogs (Clay Center in Charleston, WV on June 5, 2016 – Episode #872)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Lake Street Dive on Mountain Stage
mtnstage160909_lake_street_dive-call_off_your_dogs.mp3
Lake Street Dive – "Call Off Your Dogs" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Lucius – I Can’t Help Falling in Love with You (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on June 26, 2016 – Episode #873)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Lucius on Mountain Stage
2016-09-16_lucius-i_can_t_help_falling_in_love.mp3
Lucius – "I Can’t Help Falling in Love with You" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Margaret Glaspy – Emotions and Math (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on June 26, 2016 – Episode #873)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Margaret Glaspy on Mountain Stage
mtnstage160916_lucius_margaret_glaspy-emotions_and_math.mp3
Margaret Glaspy – "Emotions and Math" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Mike Cooley – Made Up English Oceans (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on March 20, 2016 – Episode #866)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Mike Cooley on Mountain Stage
mtnstage2016_mike_cooley-english_oceans.mp3
Mike Cooley – "English Oceans" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Ona – Sleep, Rinse, Repeat (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on February 21, 2016 – Episode #864)

Credit Brian Blauser/MountainStage
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Ona on Mountain Stage
mtnstage2016_ona-sleep_rinse_repeat_fix.mp3
Ona – "Sleep, Rinse, Repeat" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Overcoats – Smaller Than My Mother (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on February 21, 2016 – Episode #864)

Credit Brian Blauser/MountainStage
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Overcoats on Mountain Stage
mtnstage2016_overcoats-smaller_than_my_mother.mp3
Overcoats – "Smaller Than My Mother" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Rhiannon Giddens – At the Purchaser’s Option (Davis & Elkins College in Elkins, WV on August 13, 2016 – Episode #876)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Rhiannon Giddens on Mountain Stage
2016-10-07_rhiannon_giddens-the_purchaser_s_dillema.mp3
Rhiannon Giddens – "At the Purchaser's Option" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Robbie Fulks – Aunt Peg’s Old Man (University of Kentucky in Lexington, KY on April 3, 2016, with WUKY – Episode #867)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Robbie Fulks on Mountain Stage
2016-12-09_robbie_fulks-aunt_peg_s_new_old_man.mp3
Robbie Fulks – "Aunt Peg's Old Man" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Robert Ellis – California (Byham Theater in Pittsburgh, PA on September 25, 2016 with WYEP & Pittsburgh Cultural Trust – Episode #879)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Robert Ellis on Mountain Stage
mtnstage161028_robert_ellis-california.mp3
Robert Ellis – "California" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Sarah Jarosz – House of Mercy (University of Kentucky in Lexington, KY on April 3, 2016 with WUKY – Episode #867)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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Sarah Jarosz on Mountain Stage
2016-06-17_sarah_jarosz-house_of_mercy.mp3
Sarah Jarosz – "House of Mercy" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Steve Poltz – Folksinger (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on May 1, 2016 – Episode #869)

Credit Brian Blauser/MountainStage
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Steve Poltz on Mountain Stage
2016-12-06_steve_poltz-folksinger.mp3
Steve Poltz – "Folksinger" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Suzzy Roche and Lucy Wainwright Roche – Bleeker Street (Clay Center in Charleston, WV on June 5, 2016 – Episode #872)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Suzzy Roche and Lucy Wainwright Roche on Mountain Stage
2016-12-06_lucy_wainwright_roche___suzy_roche-bleeker_street.mp3
Suzzy Roche and Lucy Wainwright Roche – "Bleeker Street" – Live from Mountain Stage

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The Wood Brothers – Never and Always (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on May 1, 2016 – Episode #869)

Credit Brian Blauser/MountainStage
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The Wood Brothers on Mountain Stage
2016-05-20_the_wood_brothers-never_and_always.mp3
The Wood Brothers – "Never and Always" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Tift Merritt – Heartache is an Uphill Climb (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on December 4, 2016 – Episode #885)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Tift Merritt on Mountain Stage
2016-12-06_tift_merrit-heartache_is_an_uphill_climb.mp3
Tift Merritt – "Heartache is an Uphill Climb" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Todd Burge – Time to Waste Time (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on December 4, 2016 – Episode #885)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Todd Burge on Mountain Stage
2016-12-06_todd_burge-time_to_waste_time.mp3
Todd Burge – "Time to Waste Time" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Todd Snider – Stuck on the Corner (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on October 23, 2016 – Episode #882)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Todd Snider on Mountain Stage
2016-12-06_todd_snider-sanity___madness.mp3
Todd Snider – "Stuck on the Corner" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Wilco – Space Oddity (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on February 14, 2016 – Episode #863)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Wilco on Mountain Stage
2016-04-01_wilco-space_oddity.mp3
Wilco – "Space Oddity" – Live from Mountain Stage

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William Matheny – Living Half to Death (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on June 26, 2016 – Episode #873)

Credit Josh Saul/Mountain Stage
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William Matheny on Mountain Stage
2016-09-16_william_matheny-living_half_to_death.mp3
William Matheny – "Living Half to Death" – Live from Mountain Stage

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Wynonna & the Big Noise – These Are The Things That I Lean On (Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV on September 18, 2016 – Episode #878)

Credit Brian Blauser/Mountain Stage
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Wynonna & the Big Noise on Mountain Stage
2016-10-21_wynonna-things_that_i_lean_on_.mp3
Wynonna & the Big Noise – "These Are The Things That I Lean On" – Live from Mountain Stage

Giant Eagle Supermarket Chain Offering 340 Corporate Buyouts

The Giant Eagle supermarket chain based near Pittsburgh is offering buyouts to 340 corporate employees, or one percent of its 34,000-employee workforce.

The company, based in O’Hara Township, says it’s cutting costs because of falling grocery prices, and analysts say the company is also dealing with increased competition from discount grocers like Aldi.

The chain owns or operates more than 420 supermarkets and GetGo! Convenience stores and other outlets in Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia and Maryland.

The buyouts don’t affect store employees like cashiers and baggers, but are limited to corporate employees.

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