Trey Kay, Author at West Virginia Public Broadcasting

Us & Them: Substance Use Disorder — Can You Recover Without A Place To Call Home?

For many grappling with substance use disorder, homelessness, and the justice system, the struggle has never been more intense. New tough-on-crime laws—like Kentucky’s “Safer Kentucky Act”—are ramping up penalties on many crime categories that include a banon public camping, deepening the crisis. On this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay returns to Kentucky to explore the real-world consequences: urban areas face severe housing shortages and persistent substance use challenges, while small-town Appalachia remains even more isolated from essential support networks.

Reality is more challenging now for people who live at the intersection between substance use disorder, homelessness and the criminal justice system.

New laws across the nation echo aspects of the 2024 Safer Kentucky Act, which enhance penalties for violent crimes, drug crimes, shoplifting and carjacking, as well as a ban on public camping.

On this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay returns to Kentucky to check on the consequences of the new tough-on-crime law. In cities, the demand for longterm and transitional housing remains acute, while in small town Appalachia the access to any social safety net can be far, far away.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from The Just Trust.Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

“I’ll be honest—because we’re smaller, we have fewer unhoused people, but there are whole counties without any shelter. It’ll take us a while to sort through the data, but I’m eager to see it because I truly believe the Safer Kentucky Act is harming Appalachians. I remember burning a lot of bridges in my past; sometimes I got lucky and found a couch or went back to my mom’s house, but not everyone has that opportunity. Instead of providing resources or harm reduction, we’re throwing people in jail. Studies show that within the first two weeks after release, some individuals are 39 times, or even over 120 times, more likely to die of an overdose. It’s very frightening for our population with substance use disorder. It’s really scary.”.

— Amanda Hall, Senior Director of National Campaigns at Dream.org

**George Wruck**, who lived at the Altogether Community Center in Paintsville, Ky., said he struggled financially after moving from Florida with his sister to open a general store. When that venture failed and he had a falling out with his sister, he had nowhere to go and began camping until law enforcement informed him it was illegal. Wruck, who says his substance use disorder is long behind him, now faces financial hardships and depression.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“I hope people understand that many folks are literally living on the street. It’s today’s society—being disabled for so long means I couldn’t work or get a higher disability paycheck. A lot of people fall on hard times and need help rather than being pushed further down the hole. It’s tough, but I’ll push through it.”

— George Wruck, a homeless person living in Paintsville, Ky

**The Altogether Community Center** in Paintsville, Ky.—formerly a motel —was converted into a warming center, emergency shelter, and transitional housing facility for individuals completing substance use disorder treatment. Although it did not offer inpatient care, the center provided a structured environment to access essential services, secure stable short-term housing, and receive assistance with permanent housing and job placement. However, the Johnson County Fiscal Court voted to shutter the facility on March 12, 2025.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

**State Rep. Jason Nemes,** a Republican in Kentucky’s legislature, represents three counties, including Louisville, the state’s largest city. Nemes said he co-authored the Safer Kentucky Act, which also makes public sleeping a crime, because of what he described as outrageously high crime levels in Kentucky. In Louisville specifically, he noted that murders have increased over the past decade, and homicides are up in the surrounding Jefferson County as well.

Nemes explained that the core of the Safer Kentucky Act is to target violent criminals by ensuring longer jail sentences. One provision aims to prevent individuals who use handguns in the commission of crimes from being released early. He said lawmakers consulted with law enforcement and victims to highlight a disturbing trend of adults using children to commit crimes.

One provision of the law stipulates that if an adult uses a child to commit a crime, the adult is guilty of the same offense as the child. Additionally, the law increases the severity of the charge for the adult.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“While I have a great deal of respect for the advocates, what they’re doing isn’t working. There’s an industry built around homelessness with a lot of money at stake, and they resist change. I understand that we want people to avoid arrest and jail, but that’s ultimately up to them. It’s easy to demagogue on the other side and say, ‘they made homelessness illegal,’ but that’s far from the truth. If you’re going to break the law and encamp without accepting treatment when it’s offered, that won’t be allowed in Kentucky.

The real question is: What are the underlying reasons someone is homeless? Is it a lack of jobs, mental health issues, or substance abuse? That’s what we need to address. If they won’t accept help voluntarily, we’re prepared to get them before a judge and push for involuntary treatment. We’ll do our best to help our people.”

— Kentucky State Rep. Jason Nemes

**Isaac Chamberlain** is homeless in Louisville, Ky., and said he struggles with substance use disorder. Recently incarcerated, he has been diagnosed with three stage 3 cancers and is receiving treatment for hepatitis C. Chamberlain frequently visits VOCAL Kentucky—a group dedicated to ending the AIDS epidemic, the war on drugs, mass incarceration, and homelessness—to obtain his hepatitis C medication. He said he hasn’t been cited for living outdoors because he’s “being smart” about avoiding detection when using public restrooms, drugs, or camping.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“I do have issues with substance use disorder, but I was just released from prison. I became homeless when the person I was staying with had their house burn down last year—when I come home, there’s nothing left. Kentucky was just given $35 million for homelessness services… but where is it going? I have three stage-3 cancers and I’m on the streets, yet I’m asking for help. I’ve followed all the advice, but our lawmakers won’t help.”

— Isaac Chamberlain, homeless person living on the streets in Louisville, Ky

**Jennifer Twyman** is an organizer with VOCAL Kentucky, a grassroots movement of low-income individuals dedicated to ending homelessness and mass incarceration in the state. Based in Louisville, the organization works to empower marginalized communities.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“I’m appalled by the new homeless services division of the police department. Every day, they deploy a huge caravan of sanitation trucks and officers—spending a lot of money literally chasing people around. We know camp clearings increase overdoses—I have data on that—and it’s astonishing that this cycle continues, profiting those who enforce it. Now they want to use opioid settlement funds to pay for the court process our outreach workers and the Coalition for the Homeless set up to handle these citations. I used opiates for 20 years— that money represents the deaths of many of my friends. They’re taking $750,000 from that money to support a court system that exists only because our state passed [the Safer Kentucky Act].”

— Jennifer Twyman, an organizer with VOCAL Kentucky

**Donnie Green**, founder of the Arthur Street Hotel, turned his own homelessness into a mission to help others rebuild. Homeless at 23—and sober throughout—he started the hotel with private donations and has spent decades working in harm reduction.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“The legislation in place today [the Safer Kentucky Act] is not new—it has been used elsewhere in the past. To claim that the struggles within our communities, especially among vulnerable populations, are unconnected is, at best, naive and, at worst, maliciously negligent. No one chooses to live on the streets. The rules that allow some people to remain housed are too onerous, forcing them back outside. This isn’t a matter of choice; it’s a system that prevents people from securing housing. We must address that issue, or decide that everything is set in stone, with no room for adjustment.”

— Donnie Green, advocate for the homeless in Louisville, KY

Since opening in October 2022, the Arthur Street Hotel in Louisville, Ky., has helped more than 260 formerly unhoused individuals secure permanent housing. The hotel staff says that they offer “community, advocacy, resources and empowerment” (C.A.R.E.) to those experiencing housing instability, connecting them with opportunities for wellness and long-term stability. Its staff provides intensive case management to remove the physical, mental and emotional barriers that prevent people from securing permanent housing.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“I often hear people refer to us as the ‘homeless hotel’—or say we have ‘Arthur Street vibes.’ They say negative things about what we do here, and that’s fine—I like to ruffle feathers. What we do is very different. The people we serve have been turned away from every other shelter or organization.”

— Tiny Heron, director of housing services at the Arthur Street Hotel.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

**Donnie Green** and Tiny Heron sport tattoos on their forearms that capture their personal philosophies on homelessness.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

**Donnie Green**, co-founder of Feed Louisville—a nonprofit that repurposes food to combat hunger and homelessness—delivers a box of food and supplies to a man camping in Louisville on a cold February night.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

**Donnie Green** speaks with a man experiencing homelessness about his needs.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

Us & Them: We The People [But Not So Much] Women

Many assume the U.S. Constitution guarantees equal rights for all, but its authors didn’t seem to envision women as part of “We the people.” On the next episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay speaks with law professor Jill Hasday, whose new book We the Men argues that women are systematically forgotten in America’s founding stories—and that exclusion has powerful symbolic and emotional consequences.

Many Americans assume the U.S. Constitution guarantees men and women equal rights. But the authors of the Constitution did not consider women as part of ‘We the people.’

In fact, the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment provides far fewer protections for gender as a protected category than it does for race, religion or national origin.

In this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay hears from author Jill Hasday, a law professor at the University of Minnesota whose new book “We the Men” lays out an unfinished agenda for women’s equality.

Hasday says women are systematically forgotten in America’s most important stories about itself and there are important symbolic and emotional consequences from that exclusion.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from The Greater Kanawha Valley Foundation.

Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

Jill Elaine Hasday is a Distinguished McKnight University Professor and the Centennial Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota Law School. She teaches and writes about antidiscrimination law, constitutional law, family law, and legal history.

*Photo Credit: Jill Hasday*

“I have [America’s] 250th anniversary firmly on my calendar, and I believe it’s an important moment when people are truly listening. There will be many speeches asking, ‘What is America?’ and ‘What is American history?’ The centennial tells the story of how the founders established self-government, yet most Americans were denied self-government—and that omission must be part of our founding story. A hundred years later, Reagan essentially echoed the same sentiment. My hope for the nation’s 250th anniversary is that we tell the whole American story: both the founders’ tremendous achievements and the limitations that mean we are still working toward that promise. It’s not a sad story; it’s one of ongoing progress. We can all be part of that democratic project. It wasn’t completed in 1776—women, who make up half the population, deserve to be in those stories just as much as men.”

— Jill Elaine Hasday, author of We the Men: How Forgetting Women’s Struggles for Equality Perpetuates Inequality

“It took me a long time to be perfectly candid and to come up with a title. What I like about ‘We the Men’ is that our Constitution famously begins ‘we the people’—the best part of the document. From there, it goes downhill. The Constitution is supposed to speak for and empower the people to govern themselves, but in reality, everyone behind it has been a man. As my book’s subtitle suggests, women are systematically forgotten in America’s dominant narratives, which helps perpetuate their inequality. Sometimes even when people tell stories about women, they’re overlooked. How did women make progress? Men decided one day to hand it to them, instead of acknowledging that women—and male allies—had to fight enormous resistance. It wasn’t just spontaneous enlightenment; it’s also the forgetting that there’s still work to be done. People in 21st-century America have been saying that sex equality has been an issue since before the 19th Amendment ‘gave’ women the vote.”

— Jill Elaine Hasday, law professor at the University of Minnesota

Activist Phyllis Schafly wearing a “Stop ERA” badge, demonstrating with other women against the Equal Rights Amendment in front of the White House, Washington, D.C.

*Photo Credit: Underwood Archives/Uig/Everett Collection*

— Jill Elaine Hasday reflects the legacy of Phyllis Schlafly:

On the Can-Do Attitude Argument:
“Her anti-feminist manifesto, The Power of the Positive Woman, argues that if you don’t have a can-do attitude, you won’t succeed—much like a Horatio Alger story. But the flip side is that failure is blamed solely on a lack of effort, even though many hardworking women who demonstrate relentless determination still miss out on opportunities.”

On Privilege and Empathy:
“Schlafly had an extraordinarily privileged position. She married a wealthy lawyer who shared her far-right views and financed her entire operation, enjoyed household help for her six children, and maintained a supportive, if unconventional, feminist marriage. Yet she seemed to have little empathy for women struggling in harsher circumstances.”

On Media Savvy and Debating Style:
“She was always impeccably groomed, with a beautiful posture and a perfectly styled suit—qualities that made her a master of television and debate. Her cool, collected demeanor in the face of ridiculous arguments could be both admirable and infuriating to her opponents.”

On the Obstacles to Women’s Success:
“One reason I mention Phyllis Schlafly so often in the book is that she sets the template for decades of anti-feminism that persist today. She argues that equality has been achieved—and yet claims that whatever feminists ask for would be disastrous. For example, anti-feminists testify before Congress that there are no obstacles to women’s success, even as they oppose paid leave. They ask, what prevents women from working full time? For many, the reality of childcare—a need for safe, quality care when you have three young children—remains a formidable barrier. You can’t simply bootstrap your way out of a baby needing constant attention.”

Women’s Liberation Parade in New York City in the summer of 1971.

*Photo Credit: Bettmann/CORBIS/NOW.org*

“I don’t think the current Congress is going to pass a statute recognizing the ERA, so I’m not holding my breath for the next two years. In my mind, there’s no deadline for Congress recognizing the ERA; as I said, the Supreme Court has never denied recognition to an amendment that Congress accepts.”

— Jill Elaine Hasday

Us & Them: Black West Virginians With Substance Use Disorder Face Unique Challenges

The Trump administration’s proposed spending cuts could jeopardize Medicaid funding—a lifeline for many West Virginians who face the nation’s highest overdose rate. On this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay explores how Medicaid dollars support recovery organizations and the unique challenges confronting Black West Virginians with substance use disorder.

The Trump administration’s effort to cut federal spending targets a broad range of agencies and initiatives, including the low-income health care program Medicaid. Republican lawmakers are considering adding work requirements or decreasing federal investment dollars toward states providing the program. Typically, this money would be used to pay for doctors visits, nursing home care, or prescriptions. But the scope of Medicaid programs goes beyond day-to-day health care.

Many people rely on Medicaid to seek help for substance use disorder and drug and alcohol addiction. West Virginia has the nation’s highest overdose rate. In recent years, the state’s overdoses among African Americans have risen above any other group.

In this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay learns how Medicaid money supports the organizations that work in recovery and what that work looks like.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from The Greater Kanawha Valley Foundation.Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

Reverend James Patterson has led the Partnership of African American Churches (PAAC) for the past two decades as its founder and president/CEO. PAAC is a nonprofit, collaborative, faith-based community development corporation based in Charleston, WV, that also provides health care.

*Photo Credit: PAAC*

“Every time we had discussions, I was doing focus group research. We started talking about kids, the challenges they face, and other issues in our communities. Everybody kept saying, ‘the real problem is them drugs’—that’s exactly how they said it. So, we decided to do something about it. We began by implementing prevention programs and training community health workers, and then we trained them in peer support as recovery coaches.”

— Rev. James Patterson, founder and president/CEO of the Partnership of African American Churches

Many Black West Virginians have had uncomfortable experiences when visiting the doctor—experiences that can discourage people of color from seeking medical care, mental health treatment or help for drug addiction. Dr. Wendy Lewis, clinical director for the Partnership of African American Churches and a researcher of this phenomenon, explains the impact of these encounters.

*Photo Credit: PAAC*

“Every day, people face subtle but constant annoyances because of their color—especially Black people. They are insulted, invalidated and sometimes physically, verbally and mentally assaulted just for being Black. I see this as a double malady that people must overcome daily, particularly when they’re also dealing with addiction and racism. The stress they endure is something others rarely experience.

We are a licensed behavioral health center that provides treatment for substance use disorder. We offer a residential treatment facility, medication-assisted treatment and multiple sober living facilities.”

— Dr. Wendy Lewis, clinical director for the Partnership of African American Churches, Charleston, WV

Kevin Watkins received training as a peer support coach from the Partnership of African American Churches. A native of Charleston’s Westside—a community with a high concentration of Black residents—Watkins describes the area as “the valley of the shadow of death” because many people he knew died too young. Watkins struggled with substance use disorder, starting with alcohol at a young age and later turning to marijuana, pills and, eventually, speed, which he injected.

*Photo Credit: PAAC*

“I had a teacher who was trying to help me, to show me the right way. I was one of those kids with ADD—I could never sit still—so I spent most of my time in the office. I don’t think he understood the full extent of my problem, or he wouldn’t have paddled me as he did. I knew I had issues when I tried to break into his house.

Looking back, I wonder why I did it all. Part of it was the divorce—my dad was never around, having started another family—so I never had the support system other kids had. I felt like I fell through the cracks in Orchard Manor. Sometimes I’d wake up in the old county jail, not even knowing why I was there, beat up and bleeding. I knew I had a serious situation on my hands.”

— Kevin Watkins, peer support coach trained by the Partnership of African American Churches

**Robert Hansen** is retired after nearly 50 years in West Virginia’s behavioral health field, including a two-year stint as director of the state’s Office of Drug Control Policy—known as the drug czar.

*Photo Credit: The Charleston Gazette-Mail*

“Residential treatment programs in West Virginia have grown dramatically. Back in 2016, 2017 and 2018, the state had about 150 to 200 treatment beds. Today, there are more than 1,700. Providers are expanding services on the theory that Medicaid funding will continue.

The bulk of Medicaid money comes from the federal government—with Congress and the president’s approval—while West Virginia must supply matching dollars. The Partnership of African American Churches is funded similarly; as they apply for grants from the Bureau of Behavioral Health or the federal government, they have opportunities aligned with their expertise. Otherwise, their core funding is no different from any other addiction treatment provider.”

— Robert Hansen, former director of West Virginia’s Office of Drug Control Policy

Us & Them: Housing Options Are Few & Far Between In Appalachia

In West Virginia, homeownership is a paradox. While the state boasts the nation’s highest homeownership rate, low incomes mean many homes are aging and in disrepair. In one county, 67% of houses are over 80 years old. Across Appalachia by one measure, there are 500,000 people living in substandard conditions. This is the hidden crisis at the heart of Appalachia’s housing landscape.

Home ownership in America is one of the most common ways to build wealth for future generations.

But in Appalachia, West Virginia presents the complexities and nuances of that reality. The Mountain State has the nation’s highest homeownership rate but the second lowest personal income rate.

And there’s another reality at work. Much of that housing is old and needs repair. In one West Virginia county, 67 percent of the homes are more than 80 years old and half rate below normal on standard quality measures. One estimate shows there are 500,000 people living in such conditions. This is a side of the housing crisis we don’t often hear — structures in disrepair without electricity, or running water, that people call home.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from the CRC Foundation.

Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

Jim King is CEO of FAHE, an organization that brings people, organizations, and resources together to build houses and communities in Appalachia. FAHE works with more than 50 community-based non-profits in six Appalachian states to offer housing leadership in one of the most difficult places to serve in the country.

*Courtesy of FAHE*

“We have about 3.8 million households in Appalachia, and by several measures, there are half a million people living in homes built before 1930 or in families earning less than 30% of area median income. Cuts to the HUD budget this year have hit federal assistance hard, leaving people with less buying power. All things equal, if your income is very low, your ability to find a decent place to live is very limited.”

– Jim King., CEO of FAHE

“Back then I would get the water in a barrel for cleaning and cooking and all that stuff. I got a big pot out there that I use heat water in to bathe and stuff. I used wood and had a flue that I had built in for heat.”

– Joyce Vest

“I just realized when I came out here that that’s not a way for her to live, and if I could help her, we were going to do so. We started searching and looking [to find a service to help], and it took a couple of years before we had the house. It was one of those things that was on my heart that I had to do. To be honest, I didn’t realize people lived like that — without electricity and without water. I’m not sure how she did it, but she did. She managed. It was an eye-opening experience for me, and it made me realize that I needed to do some things.”

– Stacy Reeder, a veterinarian in rural Virginia

After veterinarian Stacey Reeder saw the condition of Joyce Vest’s home, she knew she had to act. A search online led her to the Southeast Rural Community Assistance Project (SERCAP). Kenneth Rogers (pictured above), a rural housing specialist with the organization, was eventually put on the case. SERCAP helped Vest enroll in the Indoor Plumbing & Rehabilitation program.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“The Indoor Plumbing & Rehabilitation program is designed for low- to moderate-income homeowners who have no indoor plumbing, no potable water or a failed septic system. In her case, she had no well, no indoor bathroom and no septic system—so she fit the qualifications for the IPR program. It’s a common challenge: even if a septic system was installed 50 years ago, it may now have failed or be underperforming and must be replaced to meet new water regulations and prevent groundwater contamination. And if someone who is 70 or 80 years old—who has lived in their home for decades—suddenly finds that their septic system has failed, they may be forced to install an alternative system that can cost up to $40,000, an expense unaffordable on a fixed income.”

– Kenneth Rogers, rural housing specialist with Southeast Rural Community Assistance Project (SERCAP)

(Pictured above) Kenneth Rogers showed Us & Them host Trey Kay two composites: before-and-after photographs of Joyce Vest’s home, taken before SERCAP built a new structure with electricity and running water. Courtesy of SERCAP

This is the exterior of Joyce Vest’s home today.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

Joyce Vest’s cozy living room. Her modest home also includes a small kitchen, a bathroom, a laundry area and two bedrooms.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

Mel Jones is co-director of the Virginia Center for Housing Research at Virginia Tech University in Blacksburg, Virginia. She works with FAHE and has analyzed housing trends showing that about 190,000 homes were removed from Central Appalachia between 2015 and 2021. Dilapidated homes were torn down or converted to commercial uses — a transition that can lead to low vacancy rates, drive up housing costs and discourage landlords from opting into affordable housing programs. Low vacancy in an area creates “tight markets,” which results in increased competition and higher costs for new housing development. Jones says that while the GI Bill helped build generational wealth over decades, many people were left out.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“That means their families haven’t accumulated the wealth needed to pass on from generation to generation to ensure stability. People my age — and I’m among the oldest millennials — can buy homes largely because of intergenerational wealth. Without that, you lose access to safe, stable housing. Anyone could become homeless at any time — a huge medical expense could wipe you out and leave you on the street. We hear stories like that, but housing insecurity is mostly rooted in generations of being left out. We see it in Appalachia, where people live in old trailers, and in urban areas, where tenants endure poorly maintained rental homes while paying high rents. This isn’t so much a political divide as it is the result of setting our country on a wealth-building track that didn’t include everyone — and still doesn’t. It’s become an us-and-them scenario.”

– Mel Jones, co-director of the Virginia Center for Housing Research at Virginia Tech University

Us & Them: What’s Next For Abortion?

New legislative agendas at the state level aim to chip away at reproductive rights, even in states that recently passed constitutional protections for abortion. On this episode of Us & Them, Host Trey Kay examines how conservative state supreme courts might limit voter-approved amendments — and how abortion-friendly states are pushing back. Meanwhile, President Trump’s new administration could override all state laws through certain executive actions, including one involving a 19th century anti-vice law. Now that the election’s over, what’s next for abortion?

There’s a fresh slate of legislative agendas in the new year and some include efforts to chip away at reproductive rights and access to abortion, even in states that have recently passed constitutional abortion rights ballot measures.

On this episode of Us & Them, Host Trey Kay looks at what’s ahead after a record number of initiatives passed in November. There’s a lot that conservative legislatures and courts can do to limit the voter-approved amendments. While legal maneuvering continues, the number of abortions in the U.S. is at its highest level in more than a decade thanks to the increased use of abortion pills and travel across state lines.

Abortion opponents want President Donald Trump to enforce a 19th century law they say will stop abortion pills through the mail. Meanwhile, abortion-friendly states are using shield laws to protect their telehealth abortion providers from criminal prosecution for providing abortion pills to women in states with bans. The U.S.’s inconsistent abortion laws are pitting states against each other, and state governments against their citizens.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from the CRC Foundation.

Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

“We got attacked from the religious right for putting a measure on the ballot that they tagged as too extreme. And we got attacked from the left for not going far enough. We had embraced the trimester tenets of Roe v. Wade, thinking that that was a good middle ground in South Dakota. So, we were kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place, wanting to work with them [Planned Parenthood and the ACLU], wanting their help. But at the end of the day, they just chose to not get involved with our efforts, which was unfortunate.”

– Rick Weiland

“In the months leading up to the election is when Gov. DeSantis really went full throttle on Amendment 4. If you were to scroll on social media, if you were to watch TV, you would see these state sponsored PSAs [public service announcements] that really were put there to counter pro-Amendment 4 language. The Department of State had certified Amendment 4 to appear on the ballot early in 2024 and then months later, turns out they’re conducting this big review and pulling all of these petitions. Election supervisors that we spoke to said it was unprecedented for the state to review petitions that they had already deemed as valid compared to, in a fraud review, looking at rejected petitions, which is what the state would have normally done.”

– Romy Ellenbogen

Democrat Rep. Margaret Croke represents the Illinois House of Representatives’ 12th District, which comprises Chicago’s lakefront communities, including Gold Coast, Old Town, Lincoln Park and East Lakeview. She was reelected to a third term in 2024 and has made reproductive rights, women’s health and children her special focus. Illinois is one of five states that allow for citizen-initiated constitutional amendments and have yet to consider one. Illinois has many laws protecting reproductive rights. Croke said the legislature chose not to place an abortion rights constitutional amendment on the ballot, the way the abortion-friendly states of New York and Maryland did, because they’re confident the laws are not in immediate danger of a Republican rollback. She said Democratic lawmakers also wanted more time to consider other rights they may want to protect following the fall of Roe.

*Photo Credit: Illinois House Democrats*

“Some of these other things that kind of fell in the Roe v. Wade decision that we had this assumption to the right of privacy. And in Illinois, do we want to make sure at the same time that we are going to put a constitutional amendment about choice? Do we want to include any of those other issues in the same breath? And if we are going to do something ‘choice plus,’ we need to make sure that messaging is just incredibly well done. And that takes time. It takes education. So I think that that is the conversation we’re having right now.”

– Illinois State Rep. Margaret Croke, 12th District

Jessie Hill, Esq. is a law professor at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio. She is also a volunteer attorney with the ACLU of Ohio and helped write the reproductive rights amendment known as Issue 1, which Ohioans passed in 2023. Hill said Ohio was the first red state to pass a constitutional amendment enshrining the right to an abortion. It allows for abortion up to fetal viability, which is around 24 weeks of pregnancy. In light of the passage of Issue 1, Hill asked a trial judge to overturn Ohio’s six-week ban, which he did. Another judge has stayed other abortion restrictions, including Ohio’s 24-hour waiting period, its ban on telehealth medication abortions and certain informed consent requirements. Those cases are likely to go before an Ohio Supreme Court that, since the election, now has a 6-1 Republican majority.

*Photo Credit: Case Western Reserve University*

“The language is written very broadly. It lays out a very clear legal test for courts to apply. The trial courts who have addressed it have found it very understandable and very protective.

“I would like to think that whatever party identification is next to a judge’s name, that they will read the law and apply the law as it’s written. I would like to think that, regardless of what their party composition is, that they’re going to do their jobs. It certainly is a cause for concern as an attorney and as an attorney who may be litigating in front of that court. But, you know, like I said, in theory and, you know, according to what conservative justices say, they believe that the text of the Constitution is worthy of respect and it’s what they have to follow. And I think if they do that, we should still win all of our cases.“

– Jessie Hill, law professor and volunteer attorney, ACLU of Ohio

Mike Gonidakis is an attorney and the president of Ohio Right to Life, the largest anti-abortion advocacy group in the state. Gonidakis and the organization have worked closely with Republican lawmakers to craft Ohio’s abortion regulations. He said Issue 1’s language is vague and will require the expertise of the conservative Ohio Supreme Court.

*Photo Credit: Ohio Right To Life*

“We just elected three Ohio pro-life Supreme Court justices and the current makeup of the court, which is seven members, six of them are endorsed by Ohio Right to Life. So, I can’t guess what they’re going to do. But here’s what I told the voters of Ohio this last election when they were considering who to vote for. Do you want a liberal pro-choice majority on the court writing the first decision on Issue 1? Or do you want a conservative pro-life court writing the first decision on Issue 1? And the voters of Ohio overwhelmingly chose the conservative court.”

– Mike Gonidakis, Ohio Right to Life

Julie F. Kay – who is not related to Trey – is a human rights attorney and the co-founder and executive director of the Abortion Coalition for Telemedicine, ACT. Kay said the goal of the ACT is to help more doctors set up telehealth abortion practices to provide medication abortion for women in all 50 states, including states with near-total bans. Eight states shield telehealth abortion providers who send abortion pills to women in states with bans from prosecution by those states. New York is one of those eight states. Its shield law is currently being challenged by Texas, which brought a lawsuit against a New York doctor who sent abortion pills to a 20-year-old woman in Texas in violation of the state’s abortion ban.

*Photo Credit: Footsteps*

“So, if there’s a patient in Arkansas who’s looking for access to a medication abortion and either can’t travel or doesn’t want to, she can go online to one of the telemedicine providers in a shield state who serves all 50 states and does the screening. The doctor sends the medications to Arkansas. She gets her medications. And let’s say, her angry ex-husband or something, is like, ‘I don’t approve of this. I’m going after the doctor,’ and tries to get a criminal warrant against the doctor in New York. The state of New York, because of their shield law, is not going to send that provider down to Arkansas on a criminal charge.”

– Julie Kay, Abortion Coalition for Telemedicine

James Bopp, Jr. is the founder of the Bopp Law Firm in Terre Haute, Indiana. He is the longtime general counsel to National Right to Life. He’s one of the top legal minds in the conservative movement. The New York Times has called him “the most prolific anti-abortion litigator of his generation” and a “bulldog litigator.” Anti-abortion advocates like Bopp want President Donald Trump’s Department of Justice to start enforcing the Comstock Act of 1873. The law prohibits the mailing of obscene material, including anything designed to produce an abortion. It’s been amended over the years, but the statute’s abortion language remains. Bopp sees the Comstock Act as a way of stopping telehealth abortion providers and online retailers from mailing abortion pills to people. It could also halt the makers of those pills from shipping them to abortion providers. Abortion rights advocates say this is a misapplication of Comstock that has been rejected by the courts. But Bopp sees it as an action Trump can take without going against his campaign promise to leave abortion regulations to the states.

*Photo Credit: James Bopp, Jr.*

“Interstate transport is not governed by the states. Interstate transport is governed by federal law. And federal law already has a prohibition on interstate transport of abortion drugs. So there’s no new law. It’s been around for quite a while. It’s very specific. So, his [Trump’s] commitment not to try to limit abortion in the states by federal law is perfectly consistent with the federal government’s authority to regulate interstate activities. And that’s what he would be doing with the Comstock Act.”

– James Bopp, Jr., general counsel for National Right to Life

Other WVPB reports on the subject of abortion:

Us & Them: They’ve Been Here Before by Trey Kay, Maria Young and Matthew Hancock
Religious Leaders Unite To Help Those Seeking To End Pregnancies by Maria Young
Us & Them: The Geography Of Abortion by Trey Kay, Amy Eddings and Matthew Hancock
Us & Them: Post_Roe Mountain State by Trey Kay and Tasha A.F. Lemley
Us & Them: Abortion Divide by Trey Kay and Marisa Helms

**Editor’s Note: An earlier version of this story incorrectly reported Allysa Wagner’s title. She is a Doctor of Nursing Practice and Medical Director of Hey Jane.

Us & Them: They’ve Been Here Before

As 2025 begins, some states are poised to pass tighter abortion restrictions, building on more than 40 bans enacted since Roe v. Wade was overturned. On the next episode of “Us & Them,” host Trey Kay revisits the fight for reproductive care, talking with a retired Episcopal priest who recalls how liberal clergy helped women navigate the barriers of the pre-Roe era. Now, some of those same clergy are pulling that playbook off the shelf as anti-abortion supporters push for new federal limits.

With the start of 2025, legislators in some states are determined to pass even tighter abortion restrictions.

In the two years since the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, more than 40 states have passed abortion bans — some with very limited exceptions. Abortion rights advocates are equally determined to expand access to reproductive care, and many are revisiting lessons from half a century ago, before legal abortion was guaranteed.

On the next episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay hears from retired Episcopal priest Jim Lewis, who decades ago joined a network of “Religious Left” clergy to help women navigate pre-Roe barriers. Kay also speaks with Margaret Chapman-Pomponio, executive director of West Virginia FREE, about how supporters of reproductive rights are preparing for a new era of advocacy, even as anti-abortion advocates urge a Republican majority in Congress to tighten medication regulations and enact a federal abortion ban.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from the CRC Foundation.

Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

The Rev. Jim Lewis, left, and Margaret Chapman-Pomponio, right, at a convention in New Orleans, La., for the Spiritual Alliance of Churches for Reproductive Dignity. Lewis is a retired Episcopal priest who has championed social justice issues for more than a half-century. Before the U.S. Supreme Court’s 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, he was part of the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion — a coalition that referred women from states where abortion was illegal to providers in New York, where the procedure was legal. Chapman-Pomponio is the executive director of West Virginia Free, an abortion rights and reproductive health advocacy nonprofit.

*Photo Credit: Margaret Chapman-Pomponio*

Other WVPB reports on the subject of abortion:

Religious Leaders Unite To Help Those Seeking To End Pregnancies by WVPB Assistant News Director Maria Young
Us & Them: The Geography Of Abortion by Trey Kay, Amy Eddings and Matthew Hancock
Us & Them: Post_Roe Mountain State by Trey Kay and Tasha A.F. Lemley
Us & Them: Abortion Divide by Trey Kay and Marisa Helms