Trey Kay, Author at West Virginia Public Broadcasting

Us & Them: Diversity, Equity & Inclusion — Its History And The Efforts To Erase It

DEI programs aimed to expand opportunity—now they’re facing pushback. On the latest Us & Them, host Trey Kay examines the political and cultural forces challenging diversity, equity and inclusion efforts—and why more than 30 states have considered rolling them back.

For decades, polls have shown most Americans believe equal opportunity in the workplace is beneficial and laws like the 1964 Civil Rights Act worked to achieve that goal. More recently, the effort has included voluntary diversity, equity and inclusion programs – known as DEI.

On this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay looks at changing social and political sentiment that’s prompted efforts to dismantle the nation’s DEI programs. President Trump’s executive orders require government agencies to stop the programs calling them illegal and immoral discrimination. State lawmakers are taking a cue from Washington and so far more than 30 states have considered or are looking at anti-DEI legislation, with half having already passed such laws.

While some people say diversity programs provide positive societal change and are positive for a business’s bottom line, a growing percentage say the efforts are discriminatory practices that can lower employment standards and do not improve productivity or efficiency in the workplace.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from the Greater Kanawha Valley Foundation and the CRC Foundation.

Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

The debate over Diversity, Equity and Inclusion — referred to as DEI — is one of the fiercest fronts in America’s culture wars. These initiatives, rooted in the spirit of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, are meant to ensure fair access and opportunity. Increasing opposition to such programs and initiatives includes executive orders from President Donald Trump as well as dozens of state proposals.

Elliott Hicks is a Charleston lawyer and member of Us & Them’s DEI advisory board. He’s pictured here at an event at the West Virginia University Law School.

*Photo Credit: West Virginia Executive Magazine*

To explore some of the complexities of DEI, we begin with a look inward at the Us & Them project. Our production team is small and mostly white, made up of a handful of producers—most of whom are women — who write and mix each episode. In the past decade, only one person of color has produced content for the show.

A few years ago, at the suggestion of one of our funders, we created a DEI advisory board including people of color from West Virginia to gain input and feedback from a more diverse range of perspectives. We established a six-member board, all of whom are community leaders with experience serving on corporate, nonprofit and civic boards.

Elliot Hicks, an Us & Them advisory board member, is a longtime attorney based in Charleston, West Virginia, who serves on several boards, including Friends of West Virginia Public Broadcasting. Hicks says he joined the Us & Them DEI board because he believes the show is genuinely working to include diverse perspectives on complex issues.

“When you have people of color on boards or in organizations where they haven’t traditionally shown up in large numbers, it helps the thinking process and makes the ideas that come out of those groups more palatable to more people. That’s why it’s to the advantage of the organization to do this and to continue those efforts — and to the advantage of our state. We shouldn’t push that aside just because we don’t have a lot of minorities here.”

— Elliot Hicks, lawyer based in Charleston, W.Va.

Felicia Bush is the owner of a mental health agency and member of Us & Them’s DEI advisory board.

*Photo Courtesy of Felicia Bush*

Felicia Bush is another member of the Us & Them DEI advisory board, but at first, she was skeptical about joining. As a Black woman, she worried she was being asked to participate just to check a box for a funder — not because of her expertise as a successful business owner.

Bush has seen the power of DEI firsthand including a staff retreat when she led a “privilege walk” for her employees.

The Us & Them team found several examples of privilege walks on YouTube explaining the activity designed to help people understand how opportunity shapes our lives.

“[After the killing of George Floyd, when there was a push for DEI training programs,] people were coming from the outside who had seen [the privilege walk exercises I led], and they were like, ‘We can get that and check that box, because we held a privilege walk.’ So they sought me out to provide it. They even offered to pay me, signed contracts and all of that. And then [after the backlash against DEI programs around 2024], they all backed out — which I thought was very telling.”

— Felicia Bush, MA, MSW, LGSW, founder and CEO of Harmony Mental Health Inc., a nonprofit mental health and social services agency serving nine West Virginia counties.

President Trump signs executive orders in the Oval Office on Jan. 20.

*Photo Credit: Anna Moneymaker/Getty Images*

As soon as he took office in January 2025, President Donald Trump signed many executive orders, including one aimed at dismantling DEI.

One of the orders said, “The Biden Administration forced illegal and immoral discrimination programs, going by the name “diversity, equity, and inclusion” (DEI), into virtually all aspects of the Federal Government… Nearly every Federal agency and entity submitted “Equity Action Plans” to detail the ways that furthered DEIs infiltration of the Federal Government. The public release of these plans demonstrated immense public waste and shameful discrimination. That ends today.”

John D. Skrentny, professor of sociology at the University of California San Diego, has written and researched the legal and policy issues related to inequality in work and education.

*Photo Courtesy of John Skrentny*

Sociologist John Skrentny of the University of California San Diego says efforts to promote workplace diversity in the U.S. have long been shaped by whether Democrats or Republicans hold political power in Washington.

After the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964, a new agency — the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) — was tasked with investigating complaints of workplace discrimination. This system would become known as affirmative action, requiring the hiring of underrepresented groups. By the 1980s, enforcement of hiring quotas had fallen out of favor, but many businesses, led by their human resources departments, continued pushing forward.

“They began to make the argument that it’s actually good for business to have more minorities and women in the workforce… Diversity is good for the bottom line.”

— John Skrentny, University of California San Diego

Books by John Skrentny:

Target store at the Southridge Shopping Center in South Charleston, W.Va.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

In the wake of George Floyd’s murder in 2020, corporate America rushed to embrace diversity, equity and inclusion.The Target corporation, based in Minneapolis, emerged as a leader — highlighting diversity in its recruiting and suppliers and revamping store layouts. But Target is now one of the major U.S. corporations scaling back or abandoning those DEI initiatives.

Yohuru Williams, professor of history and law at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, Minnesota. He also directs the Racial Justice Initiative at St. Thomas.

*Photo Credit: University St. Thomas Newsroom*

Yohuru Williams, a history and law professor at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, Minnesota, says fear of backlash is motivating corporate decisions to end DEI initiatives.

“I think there was a moment when Target legitimately could talk about being a leader. People were making deliberate decisions to shop at Target. The company was having an impact in the community. They were recruiting from some of the best universities in the country — also from historically Black colleges and universities — bringing in incredible talent who wanted to work for Target because the company embraced diversity as part of its core identity…

But in the aftermath of Trump’s executive orders and Target’s announcement, there was real fear that all of that would go away. The community had a visceral reaction. People were saying, ‘You made this promise, we made this progress together — so if you walk away from this work, where does that leave us?’”

— Yohuru Williams, professor of history and law and director of the Racial Justice Initiative at the University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, Minnesota

Books by Yohuru Williams:

President Donald Trump supported Patrick Morrisey in his successful campaign and election as Governor of West Virginia.

*Photo Credit: Patrick Morrisey Campaign*

Soon after winning the 2024 election, West Virginia Gov. Patrick Morrisey made his intentions clear. In a Facebook post, he wrote: “I will work very hard to implement the Trump agenda right here in West Virginia. Are you ready for a governor who will be fighting to help Trump?”

One of Gov. Morrisey’s first official acts was to sign an executive order eliminating diversity, equity and inclusion across state government. The order applied to public and charter schools, colleges and universities, state agencies, boards and departments.

Just weeks later, West Virginia University — the state’s largest university and employer — announced it would immediately close its Office of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.

“Here in West Virginia, we’re going to do the right thing, and we’re going to make sure that West Virginia always stands for freedom, the rule of law and the American ideal. We’re going to keep going — this is just the beginning of our effort to root out DEI. That’s going to happen more and more in the weeks and months ahead.”

— West Virginia Gov. Patrick Morrisey, in a video post praising West Virginia University for its decision to end its Office of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.

West Virginia State Sen. Patricia Rucker, R-Jefferson, argued in the 2025 legislative session that diversity, equity and inclusion programs make it harder for marginalized communities to move forward.

*Photo Credit: WV Legislative Photography*

West Virginia State Sen. Patricia Rucker, R-Jefferson, one of five women in the Senate, is a vocal opponent of diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) initiatives. Rucker, who immigrated to the U.S. from Venezuela at age 6, says the push for DEI offends her as a minority.

“I think, in general, people consider diversity a good thing, inclusion a good thing, equity a good thing. Those are all descriptions that are favorable in anyone’s minds, if you just say them in isolation. The real concern and problem is a push using the guise of DEI of those words to really, actually, I think, do reverse discrimination. And as a minority myself. I can tell you, I’m offended. The whole entire DEI push that we have done in this country offends me personally. It is telling me I need help, and that unless someone lowers the standards for me, I can’t get to the same place. And that’s offensive.”

— West Virginia State Sen. Patricia Rucker, R-Jefferson

Del. Anitra Hamilton, D-Monongalia, the only Black woman in the West Virginia Legislature, speaks at a town hall meeting in Charleston addressing a bill to eliminate DEI initiatives in state institutions.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

As West Virginia lawmakers advanced a bill to eliminate diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) efforts across state institutions, Del. Anitra Hamilton raised concerns during a House Education Committee hearing.

Hamilton, one of the few Black lawmakers in the state Legislature, joined others — both Black and white — in questioning the bill’s necessity in a predominantly white state. Critics, including Hamilton, pointed to the proposal’s vague language and warned it could mislabel legitimate inclusion efforts as discriminatory.

In the final hours of the 2025 legislative session, the Republican-majority state legislature voted to pass the measure to end DEI initiatives statewide. Following the vote, the West Virginia Democratic Party criticized Senate Republican leaders for suspending Senate rules to achieve the vote.

“I think this is a poor piece of legislation that is written to divide us. I think that any time you write legislation and put in policies that’s based on the feelings of people, it will always land you in trouble, because feelings are subjective. At the end of the day, this bill is divisive. There is no need for it. Some of the ghosts of our past we keep alive because we won’t deal with issues. DEI, we don’t have this problem in West Virginia. We create these problems. And when we do have the problems, we won’t stand for what’s right. Today I’m standing and I’m gonna be on the right side of history because it matters. It’s offensive. It’s offensive to me. It’s offensive to my ancestors. My great great grandfather was a slave. That’s how my family got here. But no one else has that testimony here. DEI matters. At some point, West Virginia has to move beyond this. And why we got to have this legislation coming from the governor’s office, I do not know. I’m against it. I will always be against it, vote your pleasure. It’s a no for me.”

— Del. Anitra Hamilton, D-Monongalia

Rev. Matthew Watts, pastor of the Grace Bible Church in Charleston, W.Va.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

Rev. Matthew Watts, a longtime activist and pastor of Grace Bible Church in Charleston, West Virginia, has been a vocal critic of Gov. Patrick Morrisey’s bill to eliminate diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) initiatives across state institutions.

“He produced no data, no information, no statistics, no witnesses. He didn’t tell any anecdotal stories as to why diversity, equity and inclusion is a problem.

“We’re not just going to roll over and say, ‘OK, all is lost. We can’t do anything. We’re back in slavery. We no longer have the right to vote. We don’t have the right to speak. We no longer have our constitutional rights.’ No — we’re going to push back.

“I can only say, I live in West Virginia. It doesn’t apply here. It’s dangerous here. It’s divisive here. It would be destructive here. It would hurt this state. And I believe if you give people truth, facts and information, the people in the state of West Virginia will see through this.”

— Rev. Matthew Watts, senior pastor of Grace Bible Church, Charleston, W.Va.

Karen Williams, a part of the local NAACP’s political action committee helped organize the town hall meeting to bring the community together to form a plan to stop West Virginia’s Anti-DEI bill from passing.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

Karen Williams greeted a group of Black and white West Virginians at a town hall meeting at Grace Bible Church, held on the 57th anniversary of the assassination of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

“So we gather here today because the question is: Will the destruction of diversity, equity and inclusion kill the dream? We cannot be silent anymore. We have to have a response when they talk about erasing history, when they don’t even understand the definition of DEI — and we have to get that clear.

“We’re going to clarify that, because it’s not just a Black face. You have women who have benefited from DEI more than anyone. You have people with disabilities, you have veterans, you have all of these groups. But when they talk about DEI, they’re talking about doing away with our history.”

— Karen Williams, a member of the Charleston, W.Va., NAACP’s political action committee

Rev. Marlon Collins of Shiloh Baptist Church speaks at a town hall meeting against legislative efforts to ban nearly all DEI initiatives.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

Rev. Marlon Collins of Shiloh Baptist Church voiced urgent concern at a town hall meeting over West Virginia’s push to eliminate diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) initiatives.

“Can we get done with all the sanitized talk now? We can come up with plans and all that, and that’s cool. But we’re dealing with racists. There’s no reasoning with these people.

“They are right in front of our doggone face — executive orders to take Black history out of the Smithsonian, not even under the table. And we still don’t have a plan.

“All the people who are Black — my mother’s age, my father’s age — and all the white people who marched with them and got sprayed, they’re going to vote. But who we need are the people who have new ideas, who have new energy. It ain’t that ‘We Shall Overcome’ energy. It’s that ‘We kickin’ the hell out of the door in’ energy.”

— Rev. Marlon Collins, Shiloh Baptist Church, Charleston, W.Va.

Us & Them: Daniel Johnston — The Troubled Life And Artistic Genius Of West Virginia Music Hall Of Fame Inductee

Daniel Johnston’s unpolished cassette recordings—raw vocals and all—captivated indie music fans in the ’80s and caught the attention of Kurt Cobain, Sonic Youth, Beck and Wilco. Now, the late “outsider artist” is headed into the West Virginia Music Hall of Fame. On the next Us & Them, host Trey Kay explores Johnston’s life, art, and enduring legacy.

Daniel Johnston, a visual artist and singer-songwriter who was a key figure in the indie music scene in the1980s, will soon be inducted in the West Virginia Music Hall of Fame.

Johnston’s high, wobbly vocals, uneven tempos, and percussive piano playing are unpolished and raw, earning him a label as an “outsider artist.” He recorded his best-known songs alone on cassette in his parents’ basement in Hancock County. Those tapes earned him a cult following in the burgeoning live music scene in Austin, Texas. Songwriters saw past the lo-fi production values of Johnston’s cassettes to the lyrics and structure of his songs. More widely known musicians like Nirvana’s Kurt Cobain championed his work.

Johnston was diagnosed with bipolar disorder in his 20s, and as his fame grew, his mental health struggles increased. He died in 2019 at age 58, leaving hundreds of songs and drawings.

In this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay talks with family members, musicians and others about Daniel’s life and legacy.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from the CRC Foundation.

Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

Hear the podcast episode.

**Daniel Johnston** is among the 2025 inductees to the West Virginia Music Hall of Fame. Johnston burst onto the ’80s indie scene with wobbly vocals and homemade cassettes that quickly earned him a devoted following.

*Photo Credit: J McConnico*

The West Virginia Music Hall of Fame is a nonprofit organization in Charleston, dedicated to documenting and preserving the lasting contributions West Virginians have made to all genres of music. Its mission is to recognize the many influential musicians who have shaped the American musical spectrum—from country, classical and jazz to rock, R&B, gospel and traditional—and eventually establish a permanent facility to house a museum for recordings and memorabilia. For now, the Hall of Fame is headquartered in the Charleston Town Center Mall. Some of the notable inductees are: Bill Withers, Billy Edd Wheeler, George Crumb, Hazel Dickens, Red Sovine, Kathy Mattea, Tim O’Brien, Little Jimmy Dickens, Fred “Sonic” Smith and Barbara Nissman.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

**Daniel Johnston** was born in Sacramento, California, in 1961, the youngest of Mabel and Bill Johnston’s five children. A few years later, the family moved to Bill’s home state of West Virginia, settling near Chester in the northern panhandle—where this photo was taken on Jan. 1, 1969, when Daniel was eight years old.

Family members say that as a kid, all Daniel wanted to do was draw cartoon figures and record songs. He dropped out of college twice, struggled to keep a job and often spent his paycheck on comic books.

His drawings range from simple black-and-white sketches to brightly colored depictions of imaginary beings and superheroes. His songs center on unrequited love, loneliness, the struggle between good and evil, and his battles with mental illness.

When Johnston was in his 20s, he was diagnosed with bipolar I disorder with psychotic features. His career was often interrupted by lengthy stays in psychiatric units.

*Photo Credit: Bill and Mabel Johnston Slide Collection*

Shelly Reed and Trey Kay standing in front of “The World’s Largest Teapot” in Chester, WV.

*Photo Credit: Amy Eddings*

Shelly Reed is Daniel Johnston’s cousin. She grew up in Chester, and still lives there today. Reed says Chester is known for two things: Daniel Johnston and the “World’s Largest Teapot,” a tourist attraction since 1938. Johnston, famous for his music and his visual art, created much of that art while growing up near Chester. But many landmarks of his presence—including his childhood home and murals he painted at the high school—are gone.

“People in town… I don’t know, they even erased his stuff. He drew a picture of a bear and other things at the high school. I’m sure they wish they had it now, because he became so famous. But they colored over it, painted over it. Have you seen his yearbook? He drew a lot of pictures in it. He was always drawing pictures—always… After he died, my daughter and I stayed at their house for two weeks because they were overwhelmed with selling all the things people wanted after he passed away. I was in shock. I thought, ‘I cannot believe people are paying anywhere from $100 to $800.’ It’s just kind of crazy that I’m related to him… You know, he was just a kid from Chester, West Virginia, who liked playing the piano, writing down every thought in his head and drawing every picture that came to mind—and here he is, famous.”

— Shelly Reed, Daniel Johnston’s cousin

**Daniel Johnston** recorded many of his songs on a $59 Sanyo boombox in the basement of his family’s Hancock County home. The early 1980s were an especially creative time for him; he compiled those songs into self-produced cassette albums and gave them to anyone who would listen.

*Courtesy Photo*

Shelly Reed, left, and Trey Kay look at a vinyl record of Daniel Johnston’s “Hi, How Are You” album, which was originally self-produced on cassette.

*Photo Credit: Amy Eddings*

Daniel Johnston’s most famous self-produced album was “Hi, How Are You?” It gained worldwide recognition among musicians, including Sonic Youth, Beck, Yo La Tengo, Pearl Jam and Wilco. The lo-fi cassette featured one of Johnston’s most recognizable characters on the cover, a googly-eyed frog-like alien Johnston named Jeremiah the Innocent. The late Nirvana frontman Kurt Cobain made the frog image iconic when he wore a T-shirt featuring it to the 1992 MTV Video Music Awards. Here, Johnston’s cousin Shelly Reed shows “Us & Them” host Trey Kay a vinyl copy of “Hi, How Are You?” at her home in Chester.

Irwin Chusid

*Photo Credit: Flash Rosenberg*

Irwin Chusid is a music historian and journalist who has been a free-form DJ at WFMU in New Jersey for more than 50 years. He frequently featured Daniel Johnston’s music on his shows. Chusid coined the term “outsider artist,” and he considers Johnston’s work to be in that category.

Chusid first discovered lo-fi music when a friend played him “Philosophy of the World,” the 1969 album by the three-sister group The Shaggs. His ensuing fascination with outsider music led him to write “Songs in the Key of Z: The Curious Universe of Outsider Music,” which includes Johnston. Chusid said Johnston is in a league of his own.

“[Daniel Johnston] has pop appeal and a huge body of work—songs people can cover or sing. Anyone can listen and hear a hook, a melody, a verse, a chorus, or something unusual in the lyrics. They can hear Daniel’s soul in that music. And that applies to every—can I use this word?—‘great’ outsider musician: They’re expressing their soul.”

— Irwin Chusid, music historian and journalist.

Mabel, Bill and Daniel Johnston.

*Photo courtesy of Hi How Are You Foundation*

Family members describe Daniel as someone who wanted to draw and play music all the time. Daniel’s mother Mabel told filmmaker Jeff Feurzeig in his award-winning 2005 documentary, “The Devil and Daniel Johnston” that “he didn’t want to do any of his chores like help mow the lawn or wash the car or any of those things.” She added that she had to “settle that.” Daniel recorded arguments with her on his cassette player and sometimes used them in songs like “Brainwash” and “Mabel’s Grievances.” He also made films spoofing her. Dick Johnston said they were brought up in a Christian home, and his mother objected to some of Daniel’s antics.

“The earliest dispute that arose about what he was doing had more to do with his art than his music, maybe. He was drawing these dead dogs’ eyeballs. And you could find these things all over the county for the longest time because he and his friends were putting them everywhere. And mother thought that was distasteful. I’ve never heard them comment on the songs except to say that they are very good and that they thought that they were a little on the depressing side.”

— Dick Johnston, only brother and former manager of Daniel Johnston and the manager of his estate.

Young Daniel Johnston playing piano at his family’s home near Chester, WV. Bill Johnston said everyone got musical training.

*Photo Credit: Bill and Mabel Johnston*

Listen to Daniel Johnston’s song “Walking The Cow.”Watch Daniel Johnston’s perform “I Live My Broken Dreams” in Austin, TX on MTV in 1985.

Daniel Johnston and musician and artist Kathy McCarty in July 1985. When they met, McCarty was living in Austin, TX and fronting the band Glass Eye.

*Photo Credit: Dick Johnston*

In 1983, Dick invited Daniel to spend the summer at his home near Houston, thinking that would help Daniel get on his feet. Dick said Daniel got a job at AstroWorld. But a few months later, Daniel moved in with a sister in San Marcos, south of Austin. Soon after, Daniel disappeared and skipped town with a traveling carnival. Dick said Daniel thought family members were going to put him in a psychiatric hospital because of his bipolar disorder.

Five months later, the carnival stopped in Austin and Daniel chose to stay. He got a job at a McDonald’s and passed out his homemade cassettes to anyone who showed an interest.

He gave a cassette to Austin-based musician and singer-songwriter Kathy McCarty, whose band, Glass Eye, was a favorite in Austin’s growing live music scene. McCarty said she got a lot of cassettes from people seeking to open for them.

“This weird guy came up to me and gave me a cassette tape. He was clearly dying of nervous energy—he could barely bring himself to talk to me. I took his cassette and said, ‘Yeah, I’ll listen to it.’ It was ‘Hi, How Are You?’ I listened to about two songs and thought, ‘My God, this guy’s a genius.’ We didn’t even practice that day; all we did was listen to his tape over and over. I think we scheduled half an hour for him to play six or seven songs. He rushed through three, then ran off stage. He went to the bathroom, climbed out the window and took off.”

— Kathy McCarty, musician and visual artist

Daniel’s local popularity led to his appearance on an episode of “The Cutting Edge” on the popular music video cable station MTV in the summer of 1985. By that fall, McCarty said Johnston suffered a psychotic episode in which he violently attacked his manager after which he spent time in a psychiatric hospital in Austin. His father, a former WWII pilot, flew to Austin to take Daniel back to West Virginia after another psychotic break. His mental health continued to deteriorate. During a trip to New York City to record his first studio album, “1990,” he assaulted another musician and was briefly hospitalized. Following a recording trip to Maryland, Daniel got into an altercation with a woman in Chester who ended up jumping out of the window of her second-story apartment to escape Daniel after he kicked down the front door. He told a judge he was trying to save the woman from a demon. The judge sent him to a psychiatric hospital in Weston, WV, where he stayed for some time before he was released into the custody of his parents. Daniel would spend a total of five years in mental health institutions over the course of his lifetime.

“Dave, here I am on MTV holding up my tape, ‘Hi How Are You,’ and they’re recording me tonight, I’m on MTV. Remember when we used to watch MTV back home? Look, I’m on MTV, David.”

– Daniel Johnston, speaking on an MTV promo for “The Cutting Edge”

Kathy McCarty began working on “Dead Dog’s Eyeball: Songs of Daniel Johnston” after Daniel was hospitalized in Weston. She said she recorded his songs so people could hear the music in a more relatable way. She accomplished that goal: The album was well-received, and one track, “Living Life,” appeared on the soundtrack of the 1995 romantic drama “Before Sunrise,” starring Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpy.

“Oftentimes people used to ask me in interviews, do you think that his mental illness is like, what makes him such a great songwriter? And I’d be like, ‘no, if he had not been mentally ill, it would have been much better.’ His mental illness – it stood in his way.”

— Kathy McCarty

Jeff Tweedy

*Photo Credit: Pitch Perfect PR*

Daniel continued to record, often collaborating with other musicians. His eighteenth and final album was issued in 2012 but his most enduring work was the material from the 1980s, much of it from West Virginia.

His dad, and later, his brother Dick, managed him. They toured with him, booking local artists to accompany him. Daniel eventually stopped playing guitar or piano because of tremors from the medications he took.

In 2017, Daniel announced he would reture from performing. He did a final, five-date tour. Each stop featured a different band influenced by his music.

Jeff Tweedy, the frontman of Wilco, and his son backed up Daniel at the Old Vic in Chicago. A video of the concert shows Daniel sitting in a chair, reading his lyrics off a music stand. Both hands grip the microphone to steady his shaking body.

Watch Daniel Johnston perform with Jeff Tweedy and his son at the Old Vic in Chicago in 2017.

Tweedy will induct Daniel Johnston into the West Virginia Music Hall of Fame and perform at the ceremony. He said it’s a great honor.

If it was up to me he’d be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame or he’d be in every state’s Hall of Fame. I don’t know, I just think that you know I think that there are a lot of good reasons to keep his music alive and keep a focus on the art that he made.

— Jeff Tweedy, of the band Wilco

Daniel Johnston performing with B.E.A.M. Orchestra during a European tour in 2010.

*Courtesy Photo*

Daniel Johnston performed outside the U.S. at venues in the United Kingdom, France, Germany and Italy. In 2010, he toured Europe with the B.E.A.M. Orchestra, an 11-piece outfit from Holland. Live recordings from that tour are on Daniel’s 2010 album “Beam Me Up!”

Dick Johnston, left, with Daniel Johnston in Austin, TX.

*Photo courtesy of the Hi How Are You Foundation*

Dick Johnston manages Daniel’s estate. He said proceeds from the sales of Daniel’s drawings and other merchandise pay for the upkeep of his voluminous archives and legacy-building projects. Dick said he’d like to develop a cable or television series based on Daniel’s life.

Daniel’s visual art is also in the spotlight. The art publisher Rizzoli will soon release “Daniel Johnston,” a 400-page book spanning four decades of Johnston’s work.

Daniel is also remembered through the Hi, How Are You Foundation, a non-profit co-founded by Tom Gimbel, who managed Daniel in the 1990s. The foundation’s “Hi, How Are You Project” educates young people worldwide about mental health through community-building events.

For a kid who started out making cassette tapes in his family’s basement, that’s quite a legacy.

“OK, even if you don’t like outsider music, you’re missing something in the human experience if you’re not listening to Daniel Johnston. He’s a deeply philosophical commentator on the world, society, life and our experience, and I think he has valuable things to offer. It’s something that shouldn’t be missed.”

— Dick Johnston

On Sept. 11, 2019, **Daniel Johnston** was found dead in his home in Waller, Texas. He was 58 and died of an apparent heart attack.

*Photo Credit: Peter Juhl*

This mural tribute to Daniel Johnston is in Houston, TX. It was unveiled on Hi, How Are You Day, a celebration of Johnston held every year on his birthday, on Jan. 22, 2020. The mural was created by muralist Anat Ronan and artist Jacob Calle.

*Photo Credit: Jacob Calle*

Us & Them: Substance Use Disorder — Can You Recover Without A Place To Call Home?

For many grappling with substance use disorder, homelessness, and the justice system, the struggle has never been more intense. New tough-on-crime laws—like Kentucky’s “Safer Kentucky Act”—are ramping up penalties on many crime categories that include a banon public camping, deepening the crisis. On this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay returns to Kentucky to explore the real-world consequences: urban areas face severe housing shortages and persistent substance use challenges, while small-town Appalachia remains even more isolated from essential support networks.

Reality is more challenging now for people who live at the intersection between substance use disorder, homelessness and the criminal justice system.

New laws across the nation echo aspects of the 2024 Safer Kentucky Act, which enhance penalties for violent crimes, drug crimes, shoplifting and carjacking, as well as a ban on public camping.

On this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay returns to Kentucky to check on the consequences of the new tough-on-crime law. In cities, the demand for longterm and transitional housing remains acute, while in small town Appalachia the access to any social safety net can be far, far away.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from The Just Trust.Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

“I’ll be honest—because we’re smaller, we have fewer unhoused people, but there are whole counties without any shelter. It’ll take us a while to sort through the data, but I’m eager to see it because I truly believe the Safer Kentucky Act is harming Appalachians. I remember burning a lot of bridges in my past; sometimes I got lucky and found a couch or went back to my mom’s house, but not everyone has that opportunity. Instead of providing resources or harm reduction, we’re throwing people in jail. Studies show that within the first two weeks after release, some individuals are 39 times, or even over 120 times, more likely to die of an overdose. It’s very frightening for our population with substance use disorder. It’s really scary.”.

— Amanda Hall, Senior Director of National Campaigns at Dream.org

**George Wruck**, who lived at the Altogether Community Center in Paintsville, Ky., said he struggled financially after moving from Florida with his sister to open a general store. When that venture failed and he had a falling out with his sister, he had nowhere to go and began camping until law enforcement informed him it was illegal. Wruck, who says his substance use disorder is long behind him, now faces financial hardships and depression.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“I hope people understand that many folks are literally living on the street. It’s today’s society—being disabled for so long means I couldn’t work or get a higher disability paycheck. A lot of people fall on hard times and need help rather than being pushed further down the hole. It’s tough, but I’ll push through it.”

— George Wruck, a homeless person living in Paintsville, Ky

**The Altogether Community Center** in Paintsville, Ky.—formerly a motel —was converted into a warming center, emergency shelter, and transitional housing facility for individuals completing substance use disorder treatment. Although it did not offer inpatient care, the center provided a structured environment to access essential services, secure stable short-term housing, and receive assistance with permanent housing and job placement. However, the Johnson County Fiscal Court voted to shutter the facility on March 12, 2025.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

**State Rep. Jason Nemes,** a Republican in Kentucky’s legislature, represents three counties, including Louisville, the state’s largest city. Nemes said he co-authored the Safer Kentucky Act, which also makes public sleeping a crime, because of what he described as outrageously high crime levels in Kentucky. In Louisville specifically, he noted that murders have increased over the past decade, and homicides are up in the surrounding Jefferson County as well.

Nemes explained that the core of the Safer Kentucky Act is to target violent criminals by ensuring longer jail sentences. One provision aims to prevent individuals who use handguns in the commission of crimes from being released early. He said lawmakers consulted with law enforcement and victims to highlight a disturbing trend of adults using children to commit crimes.

One provision of the law stipulates that if an adult uses a child to commit a crime, the adult is guilty of the same offense as the child. Additionally, the law increases the severity of the charge for the adult.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“While I have a great deal of respect for the advocates, what they’re doing isn’t working. There’s an industry built around homelessness with a lot of money at stake, and they resist change. I understand that we want people to avoid arrest and jail, but that’s ultimately up to them. It’s easy to demagogue on the other side and say, ‘they made homelessness illegal,’ but that’s far from the truth. If you’re going to break the law and encamp without accepting treatment when it’s offered, that won’t be allowed in Kentucky.

The real question is: What are the underlying reasons someone is homeless? Is it a lack of jobs, mental health issues, or substance abuse? That’s what we need to address. If they won’t accept help voluntarily, we’re prepared to get them before a judge and push for involuntary treatment. We’ll do our best to help our people.”

— Kentucky State Rep. Jason Nemes

**Isaac Chamberlain** is homeless in Louisville, Ky., and said he struggles with substance use disorder. Recently incarcerated, he has been diagnosed with three stage 3 cancers and is receiving treatment for hepatitis C. Chamberlain frequently visits VOCAL Kentucky—a group dedicated to ending the AIDS epidemic, the war on drugs, mass incarceration, and homelessness—to obtain his hepatitis C medication. He said he hasn’t been cited for living outdoors because he’s “being smart” about avoiding detection when using public restrooms, drugs, or camping.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“I do have issues with substance use disorder, but I was just released from prison. I became homeless when the person I was staying with had their house burn down last year—when I come home, there’s nothing left. Kentucky was just given $35 million for homelessness services… but where is it going? I have three stage-3 cancers and I’m on the streets, yet I’m asking for help. I’ve followed all the advice, but our lawmakers won’t help.”

— Isaac Chamberlain, homeless person living on the streets in Louisville, Ky

**Jennifer Twyman** is an organizer with VOCAL Kentucky, a grassroots movement of low-income individuals dedicated to ending homelessness and mass incarceration in the state. Based in Louisville, the organization works to empower marginalized communities.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“I’m appalled by the new homeless services division of the police department. Every day, they deploy a huge caravan of sanitation trucks and officers—spending a lot of money literally chasing people around. We know camp clearings increase overdoses—I have data on that—and it’s astonishing that this cycle continues, profiting those who enforce it. Now they want to use opioid settlement funds to pay for the court process our outreach workers and the Coalition for the Homeless set up to handle these citations. I used opiates for 20 years— that money represents the deaths of many of my friends. They’re taking $750,000 from that money to support a court system that exists only because our state passed [the Safer Kentucky Act].”

— Jennifer Twyman, an organizer with VOCAL Kentucky

**Donnie Green**, founder of the Arthur Street Hotel, turned his own homelessness into a mission to help others rebuild. Homeless at 23—and sober throughout—he started the hotel with private donations and has spent decades working in harm reduction.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“The legislation in place today [the Safer Kentucky Act] is not new—it has been used elsewhere in the past. To claim that the struggles within our communities, especially among vulnerable populations, are unconnected is, at best, naive and, at worst, maliciously negligent. No one chooses to live on the streets. The rules that allow some people to remain housed are too onerous, forcing them back outside. This isn’t a matter of choice; it’s a system that prevents people from securing housing. We must address that issue, or decide that everything is set in stone, with no room for adjustment.”

— Donnie Green, advocate for the homeless in Louisville, KY

Since opening in October 2022, the Arthur Street Hotel in Louisville, Ky., has helped more than 260 formerly unhoused individuals secure permanent housing. The hotel staff says that they offer “community, advocacy, resources and empowerment” (C.A.R.E.) to those experiencing housing instability, connecting them with opportunities for wellness and long-term stability. Its staff provides intensive case management to remove the physical, mental and emotional barriers that prevent people from securing permanent housing.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“I often hear people refer to us as the ‘homeless hotel’—or say we have ‘Arthur Street vibes.’ They say negative things about what we do here, and that’s fine—I like to ruffle feathers. What we do is very different. The people we serve have been turned away from every other shelter or organization.”

— Tiny Heron, director of housing services at the Arthur Street Hotel.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

**Donnie Green** and Tiny Heron sport tattoos on their forearms that capture their personal philosophies on homelessness.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

**Donnie Green**, co-founder of Feed Louisville—a nonprofit that repurposes food to combat hunger and homelessness—delivers a box of food and supplies to a man camping in Louisville on a cold February night.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

**Donnie Green** speaks with a man experiencing homelessness about his needs.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

Us & Them: We The People [But Not So Much] Women

Many assume the U.S. Constitution guarantees equal rights for all, but its authors didn’t seem to envision women as part of “We the people.” On the next episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay speaks with law professor Jill Hasday, whose new book We the Men argues that women are systematically forgotten in America’s founding stories—and that exclusion has powerful symbolic and emotional consequences.

Many Americans assume the U.S. Constitution guarantees men and women equal rights. But the authors of the Constitution did not consider women as part of ‘We the people.’

In fact, the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment provides far fewer protections for gender as a protected category than it does for race, religion or national origin.

In this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay hears from author Jill Hasday, a law professor at the University of Minnesota whose new book “We the Men” lays out an unfinished agenda for women’s equality.

Hasday says women are systematically forgotten in America’s most important stories about itself and there are important symbolic and emotional consequences from that exclusion.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from The Greater Kanawha Valley Foundation.

Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

Jill Elaine Hasday is a Distinguished McKnight University Professor and the Centennial Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota Law School. She teaches and writes about antidiscrimination law, constitutional law, family law, and legal history.

*Photo Credit: Jill Hasday*

“I have [America’s] 250th anniversary firmly on my calendar, and I believe it’s an important moment when people are truly listening. There will be many speeches asking, ‘What is America?’ and ‘What is American history?’ The centennial tells the story of how the founders established self-government, yet most Americans were denied self-government—and that omission must be part of our founding story. A hundred years later, Reagan essentially echoed the same sentiment. My hope for the nation’s 250th anniversary is that we tell the whole American story: both the founders’ tremendous achievements and the limitations that mean we are still working toward that promise. It’s not a sad story; it’s one of ongoing progress. We can all be part of that democratic project. It wasn’t completed in 1776—women, who make up half the population, deserve to be in those stories just as much as men.”

— Jill Elaine Hasday, author of We the Men: How Forgetting Women’s Struggles for Equality Perpetuates Inequality

“It took me a long time to be perfectly candid and to come up with a title. What I like about ‘We the Men’ is that our Constitution famously begins ‘we the people’—the best part of the document. From there, it goes downhill. The Constitution is supposed to speak for and empower the people to govern themselves, but in reality, everyone behind it has been a man. As my book’s subtitle suggests, women are systematically forgotten in America’s dominant narratives, which helps perpetuate their inequality. Sometimes even when people tell stories about women, they’re overlooked. How did women make progress? Men decided one day to hand it to them, instead of acknowledging that women—and male allies—had to fight enormous resistance. It wasn’t just spontaneous enlightenment; it’s also the forgetting that there’s still work to be done. People in 21st-century America have been saying that sex equality has been an issue since before the 19th Amendment ‘gave’ women the vote.”

— Jill Elaine Hasday, law professor at the University of Minnesota

Activist Phyllis Schafly wearing a “Stop ERA” badge, demonstrating with other women against the Equal Rights Amendment in front of the White House, Washington, D.C.

*Photo Credit: Underwood Archives/Uig/Everett Collection*

— Jill Elaine Hasday reflects the legacy of Phyllis Schlafly:

On the Can-Do Attitude Argument:
“Her anti-feminist manifesto, The Power of the Positive Woman, argues that if you don’t have a can-do attitude, you won’t succeed—much like a Horatio Alger story. But the flip side is that failure is blamed solely on a lack of effort, even though many hardworking women who demonstrate relentless determination still miss out on opportunities.”

On Privilege and Empathy:
“Schlafly had an extraordinarily privileged position. She married a wealthy lawyer who shared her far-right views and financed her entire operation, enjoyed household help for her six children, and maintained a supportive, if unconventional, feminist marriage. Yet she seemed to have little empathy for women struggling in harsher circumstances.”

On Media Savvy and Debating Style:
“She was always impeccably groomed, with a beautiful posture and a perfectly styled suit—qualities that made her a master of television and debate. Her cool, collected demeanor in the face of ridiculous arguments could be both admirable and infuriating to her opponents.”

On the Obstacles to Women’s Success:
“One reason I mention Phyllis Schlafly so often in the book is that she sets the template for decades of anti-feminism that persist today. She argues that equality has been achieved—and yet claims that whatever feminists ask for would be disastrous. For example, anti-feminists testify before Congress that there are no obstacles to women’s success, even as they oppose paid leave. They ask, what prevents women from working full time? For many, the reality of childcare—a need for safe, quality care when you have three young children—remains a formidable barrier. You can’t simply bootstrap your way out of a baby needing constant attention.”

Women’s Liberation Parade in New York City in the summer of 1971.

*Photo Credit: Bettmann/CORBIS/NOW.org*

“I don’t think the current Congress is going to pass a statute recognizing the ERA, so I’m not holding my breath for the next two years. In my mind, there’s no deadline for Congress recognizing the ERA; as I said, the Supreme Court has never denied recognition to an amendment that Congress accepts.”

— Jill Elaine Hasday

Us & Them: Black West Virginians With Substance Use Disorder Face Unique Challenges

The Trump administration’s proposed spending cuts could jeopardize Medicaid funding—a lifeline for many West Virginians who face the nation’s highest overdose rate. On this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay explores how Medicaid dollars support recovery organizations and the unique challenges confronting Black West Virginians with substance use disorder.

The Trump administration’s effort to cut federal spending targets a broad range of agencies and initiatives, including the low-income health care program Medicaid. Republican lawmakers are considering adding work requirements or decreasing federal investment dollars toward states providing the program. Typically, this money would be used to pay for doctors visits, nursing home care, or prescriptions. But the scope of Medicaid programs goes beyond day-to-day health care.

Many people rely on Medicaid to seek help for substance use disorder and drug and alcohol addiction. West Virginia has the nation’s highest overdose rate. In recent years, the state’s overdoses among African Americans have risen above any other group.

In this episode of Us & Them, host Trey Kay learns how Medicaid money supports the organizations that work in recovery and what that work looks like.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from The Greater Kanawha Valley Foundation.Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

Reverend James Patterson has led the Partnership of African American Churches (PAAC) for the past two decades as its founder and president/CEO. PAAC is a nonprofit, collaborative, faith-based community development corporation based in Charleston, WV, that also provides health care.

*Photo Credit: PAAC*

“Every time we had discussions, I was doing focus group research. We started talking about kids, the challenges they face, and other issues in our communities. Everybody kept saying, ‘the real problem is them drugs’—that’s exactly how they said it. So, we decided to do something about it. We began by implementing prevention programs and training community health workers, and then we trained them in peer support as recovery coaches.”

— Rev. James Patterson, founder and president/CEO of the Partnership of African American Churches

Many Black West Virginians have had uncomfortable experiences when visiting the doctor—experiences that can discourage people of color from seeking medical care, mental health treatment or help for drug addiction. Dr. Wendy Lewis, clinical director for the Partnership of African American Churches and a researcher of this phenomenon, explains the impact of these encounters.

*Photo Credit: PAAC*

“Every day, people face subtle but constant annoyances because of their color—especially Black people. They are insulted, invalidated and sometimes physically, verbally and mentally assaulted just for being Black. I see this as a double malady that people must overcome daily, particularly when they’re also dealing with addiction and racism. The stress they endure is something others rarely experience.

We are a licensed behavioral health center that provides treatment for substance use disorder. We offer a residential treatment facility, medication-assisted treatment and multiple sober living facilities.”

— Dr. Wendy Lewis, clinical director for the Partnership of African American Churches, Charleston, WV

Kevin Watkins received training as a peer support coach from the Partnership of African American Churches. A native of Charleston’s Westside—a community with a high concentration of Black residents—Watkins describes the area as “the valley of the shadow of death” because many people he knew died too young. Watkins struggled with substance use disorder, starting with alcohol at a young age and later turning to marijuana, pills and, eventually, speed, which he injected.

*Photo Credit: PAAC*

“I had a teacher who was trying to help me, to show me the right way. I was one of those kids with ADD—I could never sit still—so I spent most of my time in the office. I don’t think he understood the full extent of my problem, or he wouldn’t have paddled me as he did. I knew I had issues when I tried to break into his house.

Looking back, I wonder why I did it all. Part of it was the divorce—my dad was never around, having started another family—so I never had the support system other kids had. I felt like I fell through the cracks in Orchard Manor. Sometimes I’d wake up in the old county jail, not even knowing why I was there, beat up and bleeding. I knew I had a serious situation on my hands.”

— Kevin Watkins, peer support coach trained by the Partnership of African American Churches

**Robert Hansen** is retired after nearly 50 years in West Virginia’s behavioral health field, including a two-year stint as director of the state’s Office of Drug Control Policy—known as the drug czar.

*Photo Credit: The Charleston Gazette-Mail*

“Residential treatment programs in West Virginia have grown dramatically. Back in 2016, 2017 and 2018, the state had about 150 to 200 treatment beds. Today, there are more than 1,700. Providers are expanding services on the theory that Medicaid funding will continue.

The bulk of Medicaid money comes from the federal government—with Congress and the president’s approval—while West Virginia must supply matching dollars. The Partnership of African American Churches is funded similarly; as they apply for grants from the Bureau of Behavioral Health or the federal government, they have opportunities aligned with their expertise. Otherwise, their core funding is no different from any other addiction treatment provider.”

— Robert Hansen, former director of West Virginia’s Office of Drug Control Policy

Us & Them: Housing Options Are Few & Far Between In Appalachia

In West Virginia, homeownership is a paradox. While the state boasts the nation’s highest homeownership rate, low incomes mean many homes are aging and in disrepair. In one county, 67% of houses are over 80 years old. Across Appalachia by one measure, there are 500,000 people living in substandard conditions. This is the hidden crisis at the heart of Appalachia’s housing landscape.

Home ownership in America is one of the most common ways to build wealth for future generations.

But in Appalachia, West Virginia presents the complexities and nuances of that reality. The Mountain State has the nation’s highest homeownership rate but the second lowest personal income rate.

And there’s another reality at work. Much of that housing is old and needs repair. In one West Virginia county, 67 percent of the homes are more than 80 years old and half rate below normal on standard quality measures. One estimate shows there are 500,000 people living in such conditions. This is a side of the housing crisis we don’t often hear — structures in disrepair without electricity, or running water, that people call home.

This episode of Us & Them is presented with support from the CRC Foundation.

Subscribe to Us & Them on Apple Podcasts, NPR One, RadioPublic, Spotify, Stitcher and beyond.

Jim King is CEO of FAHE, an organization that brings people, organizations, and resources together to build houses and communities in Appalachia. FAHE works with more than 50 community-based non-profits in six Appalachian states to offer housing leadership in one of the most difficult places to serve in the country.

*Courtesy of FAHE*

“We have about 3.8 million households in Appalachia, and by several measures, there are half a million people living in homes built before 1930 or in families earning less than 30% of area median income. Cuts to the HUD budget this year have hit federal assistance hard, leaving people with less buying power. All things equal, if your income is very low, your ability to find a decent place to live is very limited.”

– Jim King., CEO of FAHE

“Back then I would get the water in a barrel for cleaning and cooking and all that stuff. I got a big pot out there that I use heat water in to bathe and stuff. I used wood and had a flue that I had built in for heat.”

– Joyce Vest

“I just realized when I came out here that that’s not a way for her to live, and if I could help her, we were going to do so. We started searching and looking [to find a service to help], and it took a couple of years before we had the house. It was one of those things that was on my heart that I had to do. To be honest, I didn’t realize people lived like that — without electricity and without water. I’m not sure how she did it, but she did. She managed. It was an eye-opening experience for me, and it made me realize that I needed to do some things.”

– Stacy Reeder, a veterinarian in rural Virginia

After veterinarian Stacey Reeder saw the condition of Joyce Vest’s home, she knew she had to act. A search online led her to the Southeast Rural Community Assistance Project (SERCAP). Kenneth Rogers (pictured above), a rural housing specialist with the organization, was eventually put on the case. SERCAP helped Vest enroll in the Indoor Plumbing & Rehabilitation program.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“The Indoor Plumbing & Rehabilitation program is designed for low- to moderate-income homeowners who have no indoor plumbing, no potable water or a failed septic system. In her case, she had no well, no indoor bathroom and no septic system—so she fit the qualifications for the IPR program. It’s a common challenge: even if a septic system was installed 50 years ago, it may now have failed or be underperforming and must be replaced to meet new water regulations and prevent groundwater contamination. And if someone who is 70 or 80 years old—who has lived in their home for decades—suddenly finds that their septic system has failed, they may be forced to install an alternative system that can cost up to $40,000, an expense unaffordable on a fixed income.”

– Kenneth Rogers, rural housing specialist with Southeast Rural Community Assistance Project (SERCAP)

(Pictured above) Kenneth Rogers showed Us & Them host Trey Kay two composites: before-and-after photographs of Joyce Vest’s home, taken before SERCAP built a new structure with electricity and running water. Courtesy of SERCAP

This is the exterior of Joyce Vest’s home today.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

Joyce Vest’s cozy living room. Her modest home also includes a small kitchen, a bathroom, a laundry area and two bedrooms.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

Mel Jones is co-director of the Virginia Center for Housing Research at Virginia Tech University in Blacksburg, Virginia. She works with FAHE and has analyzed housing trends showing that about 190,000 homes were removed from Central Appalachia between 2015 and 2021. Dilapidated homes were torn down or converted to commercial uses — a transition that can lead to low vacancy rates, drive up housing costs and discourage landlords from opting into affordable housing programs. Low vacancy in an area creates “tight markets,” which results in increased competition and higher costs for new housing development. Jones says that while the GI Bill helped build generational wealth over decades, many people were left out.

*Photo Credit: Trey Kay/West Virginia Public Broadcasting*

“That means their families haven’t accumulated the wealth needed to pass on from generation to generation to ensure stability. People my age — and I’m among the oldest millennials — can buy homes largely because of intergenerational wealth. Without that, you lose access to safe, stable housing. Anyone could become homeless at any time — a huge medical expense could wipe you out and leave you on the street. We hear stories like that, but housing insecurity is mostly rooted in generations of being left out. We see it in Appalachia, where people live in old trailers, and in urban areas, where tenants endure poorly maintained rental homes while paying high rents. This isn’t so much a political divide as it is the result of setting our country on a wealth-building track that didn’t include everyone — and still doesn’t. It’s become an us-and-them scenario.”

– Mel Jones, co-director of the Virginia Center for Housing Research at Virginia Tech University